I'm an advocate for child labor!

Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like some people have the "it wouldn't happen to me" kind of attitude which is an issue in itself and a surefire way to get hurt at some point. If this guy let his kid feed the chipper I am sure he had the same thoughts as you Bixler.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO that's a hell of a thing to assume.
shocked.gif
 
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

[ QUOTE ]
Its not my given or chosen role to clarify or straighten out threads. I state my position and thoughts.

Of course there are opposing views on anything. human nature

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay Tom D, sorry to single you out with my question to you. I didn't mean to offend you, or put you on the spot in a negative light. I just wanted to make sure we were all talking about the same issue. That's why I asked. Thanks.
 
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

When I was in my twenties and early thirties I was the most cocky and self assured dude ( very stubborn ), however life has a way of bringing us to our senses. It tends to dole out reality checks which can be most humbling. I am just hoping that a thread such as this saves someone from having unnecessary regrets. Really not pointing fingers here. I just think our children should be protected from harms way while under our care, until they are old enough to grasp the inherent dangers of chainsaws and chippers. Again over 18 is not being unreasonable, it's actually prudent.
 
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

@Bixler, Tough to imagine, but there is no tone or sarcasm with what I am about to say.
At your age (27) I was Superman,nothing could go wrong or hurt me or anyone around me. The "S" on my chest has faded over the years. What I have learned everyday of every year from your age to mine has been overwhelming. My buddies and I sometimes reflect about what we survived or the harm we could have caused to others. This thread has become the differences of opinions due to age, experience and a crapload wisdom.
Some of the forums here on TB are coaching and advice types of forums. But, a great coach will give you advice and technique and allow you to apply it to your own abbilities.
All I will ask, is maybe you open your mind (leaving out opinion) and recognize what most on this post would never want to happen to you or someone close to you. What most on this post believe is that the risk outways the outcome (good or bad).
TB is the best way to bring us all together to discuss so many different topics. It is a way for "Professionals" from all around the world to share and bring us all together. And one constant on everyone on TB is what can we do as a group to be safe and go home in one piece.
The ultimate point (I wish never was made) is a professional with the same intentions made a terrible mistake. There is too much going on around the chipper, with saws and in trees to have children on the site. We all make mistakes, why increase the risk with a kid.
My suggestion (again, not tone or sarcasm), print this out and put it away for 10 years and see if the opinion changes.
 
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

If you have never heard of the precautionary principle, then now would be a good time to learn it.

The precautionary principle can be used when you need to make a decision between two choices and there is the possibility of danger/harm.

There are two choices, two outcomes, and four results. These are put into a decision matrix. (see attached)

Choice 1: Young child is allowed to use a chainsaw/chipper
Choice 2: Young child is NOT allowed to use a chainsaw/chipper

Outcome 1: Nothing bad happens.
Outcome 2: Something bad happens.

So the results are:

1. Young child is allowed to use a chainsaw/chipper and nothing bad happens. Great! Child learns how to use machinery/tools and also learns work ethic and responsibility at a young age.

2. Young child is allowed to use a chainsaw/shipper and something bad does happen. CHILD IS INJURED OR POSSIBLY KILLED!

3. Young child is NOT allowed to use a chainsaw/chipper and nothing bad happens. Unfortunately, child does not learn to use machinery/tools (until older). Child can learn work ethic and responsibility through other chores/jobs.

4. Young child is NOT allowed to use a chainsaw/chipper and something bad does happen. YOU POSSIBLY SAVE A CHILD'S LIFE! Unfortunately, child does not learn to use machinery/tools (until older). Child can learn work ethic and responsibility though other chores/jobs.

So, your choice of letting the child use the chainsaw/chipper can result in something very good, but it can also result in something very very bad (injured/dead child).
A choice of NOT letting the child use the chainsaw/chipper can result in something OK, or something very good (saving life).

So you need to ask yourself: Is the reward of having a young child learn to operate the machinery/tools (even though they will learn these when they get older) really MORE IMPORTANT than the risk of their severe injury or death?
 

Attachments

  • 319593-PrecautionaryPrincipleforYoungchildandchainsaw-chipper.webp
    319593-PrecautionaryPrincipleforYoungchildandchainsaw-chipper.webp
    115.4 KB · Views: 31
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

Joe,

Thanks for the contribution. Incorporating that thinking process will keep people alive and healthy.

Laurence Gonzales wrote Deep Survival A term that he uses is 'Survival Thinking'. I started using a similar process that I called 'Nodal Thinking'. All the same, basic reasoning, If:Then. Try to incorporate as many ifs at the beginning. Being honest about the thens is required, none can be ignored. Trust the reasoning not emotion.
 
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seems like some people have the "it wouldn't happen to me" kind of attitude which is an issue in itself and a surefire way to get hurt at some point. If this guy let his kid feed the chipper I am sure he had the same thoughts as you Bixler.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO that's a hell of a thing to assume.
shocked.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

What is? It is more of an educated guess based on what you have posted you you have the "it won't happen to me" kind of attitude. I am sure the guy in the posted article felt that his child was capable of being there as well or else he wouldn't be. There is so much to take in of this thread that I may have missed it but I don't recall you ever stating what your opinion is on this subject.
 
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seems like some people have the "it wouldn't happen to me" kind of attitude which is an issue in itself and a surefire way to get hurt at some point. If this guy let his kid feed the chipper I am sure he had the same thoughts as you Bixler.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO that's a hell of a thing to assume.
shocked.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

What is? It is more of an educated guess based on what you have posted you you have the "it won't happen to me" kind of attitude. I am sure the guy in the posted article felt that his child was capable of being there as well or else he wouldn't be. There is so much to take in of this thread that I may have missed it but I don't recall you ever stating what your opinion is on this subject.

[/ QUOTE ]

I say "assume" You say educated guess. To each their own. I don't know how the guy in the article you mention, felt about his three children being on the job site with him, I'm not sure if he had a "it wouldn't happen to me" sort of attitude, I wouldn't go as far at to assume anything on the matter, really. Yes, there is much to take in of this thread (as I have re-read it countless times), and no I haven't stated my personal opinion on the subject; I was asking for clarification on the subject/issue before I went into my personal opinion (not that it matters).
 
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/10...-cards-headline

I think we can all agree that 6 is too young... 18 is too old IMO... I wanted to teach my 11 year old son to run a saw last summer, but his Mom wouldn't allow it, and I didn't want to upset her. I had a woodpile put aside specifically for the job, and bought a new 192, was planning on holding the saw with him for the first couple cuts and watching every single move.. It couldn't have gone bad in those circumstances. He's big, strong and intelligent for his age, as well as being very safety conscious.
Work is one way that we can teach our boys how to become men. With a proper attitude, supervision and care on both parent and son's part, I think 11,12 or 13 is a fine age to start running a chainsaw.. Chipper and a stump grinder are a different story... Let the kid drag brush to the chipper and have someone else feed it... No big deal..
 
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

Of course it matters. You have a lot to say but none of it has to do with what you feel is right.

What is you opinion on kids, lets say under the age of 10 using a wood chipper?
 
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

[ QUOTE ]
When I was in my twenties and early thirties I was the most cocky and self assured dude ( very stubborn ), however life has a way of bringing us to our senses. It tends to dole out reality checks which can be most humbling. I am just hoping that a thread such as this saves someone from having unnecessary regrets. Really not pointing fingers here. I just think our children should be protected from harms way while under our care, until they are old enough to grasp the inherent dangers of chainsaws and chippers. Again over 18 is not being unreasonable, it's actually prudent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yo Swing! Thanks for sharing. I whole heartedly agree that life has a way of bringing us to our senses with many humbling reality checks. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on protecting children, were on the same team, we may just have different thoughts when it comes down to; having to be 16 for this... or 18 and older for that... (hey no biggie). I understand why we have to have so many rules and regulations, so many laws and penalties (at least where I live); we have so many people and so many of them act irresponsible and show a huge lack of accountability. I feel those people will likely be the end to themselves, and their children/friends/family can possibly become collateral damage.
 
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

All I have to say is thank goodness for the ignore user button, sometimes you can't fix stupid.
 
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

[ QUOTE ]
we have so many people and so many of them act irresponsible and show a huge lack of accountability. I feel those people will likely be the end to themselves, and their children/friends/family can possibly become collateral damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize that most of us feel this statement describes you.

That's why we are trying to present you with information to hopefully change your mind.
 
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

@AcTree, I can only imagine what I might learn in the next 10 years, I look forward to those years so much! I appreciate all of your posts. I recognize how most on this post feel and think on this issue, and thats fine, I don't want to come across as trying to change them in any way. To each their own.

I noticed you feel... "The ultimate point (I wish never was made) is a professional with the same intentions made a terrible mistake."
Personally, I wouldn't go as far to say I knew what the man's intentions were (that morning he brought his kids to work), but I will say this terrible mistake should have never happened. It's inexcusable.

It kills me to think that this has happened many times before, and will happen many times again.
 
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

"Work is one way that we can teach our boys how to become men."

Or...

Work is one way that we can teach our children to become adults. Girls/women do treework too. My nieces have been climbing since they were 5. Jim has his older daughter help him on some jobs now. Dragging brush, roping, etc. She's been given training on using a Silky too.

Bixler,

Its about time for you to get off the waffle and take a stand. Where is it? Make a point and contribute to moving the discussion forward. Over the years I've spent countless hours in meeting with you/your type, who ask to have things repeated, blather on but don't forward the discussion. If you've read the thread 'countless times' and you still can't figure it out, then take a time out.

Time to step up onto the soapbox and take your shots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speakers%27_Corner
 
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we have so many people and so many of them act irresponsible and show a huge lack of accountability. I feel those people will likely be the end to themselves, and their children/friends/family can possibly become collateral damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize that most of us feel this statement describes you.

That's why we are trying to present you with information to hopefully change your mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Respectfully,
It must be nice to feel comfortable speaking for the GROUP, anyway, I realize that MOST of you MAY feel as if my statement describes ME, and I also realize that MOST of you don't know me. So no offense taken.

You say, "That's why we are trying to present you with information to hopefully change your mind."

I say... - I feel as if you may be wasting your time trying to change other people's mind. What exactly is it about my MIND that you are trying to change? Respectfully speaking of course.
 
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

[ QUOTE ]
Bixler,

Are you ever going to share what's on your mind?

Get firm footing, waffles aren't very solid.

[/ QUOTE ]


Respectfully speaking, Tom D, I have shared plenty of what's on my mind, and I assure you I'll be sharing plenty more. I now feel it may be my place to let the thread breathe.
 
Re: I\'m an advocate for child labor!

Thanks for the questions Bixler.

I apologize for speaking for the group, hope I didn't offend anyone. It just seems like a lot of us have views that oppose yours. Speaking for myself, I am hoping that the opinions expressed on this thread will make you sit down and think about the situation and possibly change your views on letting young children use a chainsaw/chipper. I guess I don't know if it was everyone else's intention to do the same. So, I'll speak for myself from now on.

I never understood the argument "you can't judge me, because you don't know me". If a guy I don't know is doing tree work without a helmet on, I can't tell him he should wear a helmet because I don't know him? If a guy I don't know makes all of his cuts in the tree one handed with a chainsaw without a lanyard, I can't tell him he shouldn't do that because I don't know him?

I'm not saying that all of your work practices are bad, they may be great. I am just saying that on this particular issue (even if you are the greatest arborist in the world)I don't agree with your practice. I don't need to "know you" to tell you that this is dangerous and should probably be avoided.

[ QUOTE ]
woah woah woah, it's nice to know everyone hasn't jumped into the irrational/illogical boat! Thanks for posting ChrisOTS, it's nice to see that you "GET IT"
And just so all of the fear-mongerers know... (Mr. Jamoco, theX-MAN, Toparboring, love your posts Actree but you too, and of course Mr. ignorant Zale, swingdude u too, , even u Tom Dunlap... it is possible for a "9 yr. old" to rope, chip, saw, safely with supervision of course. Imagine that! I can, I've been there. And yes, this kid has been on the handsaw for years now, the father was present and aware of the chainsaw training.
... But no, we can all jump to conclusions that it's not possible to introduce a child to our dangerous profession safely, we can't even imagine it. This may lead to many children dying, insurance claims/RATES, and will not be tolerated! ANSI this OSHA that. YOU MUST BE OVER 18! Oh for christ teeth...

With all due respect...
I appreciate that fact that you all are big on safety, and don't get me wrong so am I, but I don't appreciate taking something positive and turning it over to C.P.S. cuz I don't have child size chaps or what not.

Imagine that, your nine year old could start the chipper, engage the clutch, and throw sticks in the hopper. Go-goo gaga!

shocked.gif


[/ QUOTE ]


The quote copied above is what I am trying to change. Your opinion that it is ok for a 9 year old or other young child to run a chainsaw and a chipper.

Listen, I am not trying to attack you as a person. You are right, I don't know you. You may be a great guy with good habits and good decision making capabilities. But please, consider what I and other people have said on this thread. The risks of injury/death of a child should far out weigh the benefits of learning to run a chainsaw/chipper. Accidents happen to the best ADULT arborists. Kids are by nature less responsible (hence why you are trying to "teach" them) than adults, and that adds another level of risk.

Just consider that fact that the risk is greater than the lesson in this case. There will be time (hopefully) later in life to learn how to use this equipment.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom