Secondary tie-in for spurring: choked split-tail climbing line -OR- running bowline -OR- ??

[moss]

If the rope has been used for rigging, then it shouldn’t be used as a climb line. New rigging ropes can be used, although not the best option.

I just tried using the HH2, with the 9mm RIT cord that comes with it, on True Blue. I didn’t have any succcess with that combination, or with Regatta Braid, that usually acts like Velcro, as far as grabbing. Looking at the rope it turns into a rectangle in cross section when put under load. This might be why the hitches wouldn’t hold. Maybe the dogbone and carabiner also contribute to form the rectangular shape.
View attachment 56218

Cool test, I suspect that 12-strand lines will always form a square cross-section under load. Excellent rigging rope ;-)

 

[LordFarkwad]

Thanks for the good of info, guys.

No worries; I'm definitely not using used rigging line for life support - backup or otherwise.

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

If the rope has been used for rigging, then it shouldn’t be used as a climb line. New rigging ropes can be used, although not the best option.

Exactly what Brock said.. Everyone's always pushing the narrative as if it's instant game over if you do so.. when in fact it's perfectly fine to climb on a new rigging line.. Will your hardware work with it..? Idk.. Is it designed for a shock load..? it depends.. Does it suck? Probably.. Is it ideal..? No..

I'm not advocating it & kinda cringe when i see it, but I've known ppl who rig & climb on the same line day in & day out.. 16 strand a clove & a Blake's is all they know & have been doing so for 20yrs+.. A new coil gets special treatment until it's needed to lower something & then it's multi-use cordage.. Again.. I'm not advocating it.. just explaining how it isn't as dramatic as internet forums sometimes make it..

 

[evo]

The 360 wrap is on the lower strap. It helps lock the stirrup and shank in place. Try a little wider off stance. 9 and 3 o’clock on the spar. Keep the balls of your feet on the spar and heels out a little. All this translates into the shank twisting or digging in.
The upper pad should be about two fingers below your knee.
Loose that crimped steel core, POS that has dropped climbers to their death.
You can take a 360 wrap around a small spar, this sucks for advancing but helps with the wobble side to side feeling sometimes.
Crabs are fine, double locking snaps are fine, it’s a old school thing and ignore the tag, better yet think of it as a minimum standard

 

[LordFarkwad]

The 360 wrap is on the lower strap. It helps lock the stirrup and shank in place. Try a little wider off stance. 9 and 3 o’clock on the spar. Keep the balls of your feet on the spar and heels out a little. All this translates into the shank twisting or digging in.
The upper pad should be about two fingers below your knee.
Loose that crimped steel core, POS that has dropped climbers to their death.
You can take a 360 wrap around a small spar, this sucks for advancing but helps with the wobble side to side feeling sometimes.
Crabs are fine, double locking snaps are fine, it’s a old school thing and ignore the tag, better yet think of it as a minimum standard

What do you use as a lanyard/flipline, evo?

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

The 360 wrap is on the lower strap. It helps lock the stirrup and shank in place. Try a little wider off stance. 9 and 3 o’clock on the spar. Keep the balls of your feet on the spar and heels out a little. All this translates into the shank twisting or digging in.
The upper pad should be about two fingers below your knee.
Loose that crimped steel core, POS that has dropped climbers to their death.
You can take a 360 wrap around a small spar, this sucks for advancing but helps with the wobble side to side feeling sometimes.
Crabs are fine, double locking snaps are fine, it’s a old school thing and ignore the tag, better yet think of it as a minimum standard

I was gonna say.. Evo you should probably explain what he wants to look for if your going to tell him to drop the only lanyard of the two he has, that he feels comfortable with.. It may be easy for you to tell Crimped vs Swaged vs Spliced..vs...vs...vs... but I doubt he has any idea what your talking about or why it's a "POS"..

I'm not even sure what the problem with the crimped lanyards was.. thought i read something once about rust, but I'm not sure it was a direct relation to crimping, but more so having water ingress, being covered by shrink & then unforseen rusting. Only issue i can think off the top of my head with crimping is something not being flexible & becoming brittle.. but if i was to guess, that's something that would have to have many cycles to failure.. nothing that's going to fail him the first time he uses it.. yeah.. no..?

If he feels comfortable on it now, i highly doubt he's going to dump it as he just bought the damn thing.. As long as it's not some Chicom product I'd be cool with it for now.. especially is the crimp is visibly intact..

@LordFarkward
That 360 wrap he's telling you to do on the lower gaff strap will definitely help.. it's kinda the same principle as when he mentions doing it with your lanyard around the tree. It will help secure the gaff from twisty, side to side, unwanted movement... Just to be clear, hes not telling you to wrap it around your ankle twice, not that their long enough anyways, but wrap it around the shank/support once & then buckle it.. Still.. pads with steel inserts are going to be your friend.. & yes there's different designs within those as well.. you'll have to find some compatible with who's ever spurs those are..

 

[Jonny]

Surprisingly ( and arguably I suppose), one of the best options for a pad for those spurs is also one of the more affordable. The steel shin cup pad from Weaver Leather is a popular rigid pad, alot of people love them.

http://www.wesspur.com/spurs/spur-pads.html

It's down the page a bit.

 

[LordFarkwad]

I was gonna say.. Evo you should probably explain what he wants to look for if your going to tell him to drop the only lanyard of the two he has, that he feels comfortable with.. It may be easy for you to tell Crimped vs Swaged vs Spliced..vs...vs...vs... but I doubt he has any idea what your talking about or why it's a "POS"..

I'm not even sure what the problem with the crimped lanyards was.. thought i read something once about rust, but I'm not sure it was a direct relation to crimping, but more so having water ingress, being covered by shrink & then unforseen rusting. Only issue i can think off the top of my head with crimping is something not being flexible & becoming brittle.. but if i was to guess, that's something that would have to have many cycles to failure.. nothing that's going to fail him the first time he uses it.. yeah.. no..?

If he feels comfortable on it now, i highly doubt he's going to dump it as he just bought the damn thing.. As long as it's not some Chicom product I'd be cool with it for now.. especially is the crimp is visibly intact..

@LordFarkward
That 360 wrap he's telling you to do on the lower gaff strap will definitely help.. it's kinda the same principle as when he mentions doing it with your lanyard around the tree. It will help secure the gaff from twisty, side to side, unwanted movement... Just to be clear, hes not telling you to wrap it around your ankle twice, not that their long enough anyways, but wrap it around the shank/support once & then buckle it.. Still.. pads with steel inserts are going to be your friend.. & yes there's different designs within those as well.. you'll have to find some compatible with who's ever spurs those are..

One of the accident reports someone linked to earlier was for this flipline, I think. Lol. Just what they had locally (Climb Right). Has an adjuster for a 1/2" rope, an ISC carabiner, and some kinda snap. Can't remember which kind.

I was thinking about getting another flipline altogether and using the hardware off this one.

Gotcha on the ankle wrap. Spurs are Climb Right as well.

 

[southsoundtree]

There is good gear for sale in treeBay...a package deal being broken up.

Consider that Weaver 4d like the first skateboard I'd bought off a more experienced, older skater.

A Lance Mountain board with Independent 215's and some soft wide wheels... Great for when it can out, ridable, but outdated and low performing compared to contemporary designs.

Best I can tell, a 4d will get you there, but pro's would never buy one.

Since you have a solid salary, and aren't a broke 22 y.o., buy quality, used gear, and offload the 4d towards the price, or keep for a friend to climb with you.
If you realize it's not for you, it has good resale value.

I want a band-saw mill, BADLY.
I could buy Harbor Freight and upgrade quickly, and have a harder to sell mill, it but a used brand name mill, or finance.
Hard to argue with quality.




You will need good boots for spurs, less so if you use an overhead climbing line, as possible.



Nobody loves riding a Huffy, unless they're walking.





Consider paying an In Search Of _____.

So many people have stuff sitting around that they have upgraded from, didn't for their body right, or they forgot about.

I bought a like-new saddle on treeBay. Great deal. Not sure if I like it or not.

Will be easy to resell, if I stick with my old harness.

 

[LordFarkwad]

I'm going to get some of those steel insert cuffs ASAP. And another kind of flipline/lanyard.

And I took that piece of crap buck strap and reconfigured it with a little 30" Prusik and carabiner into something that might be useable. Whatcha think?

The end that was originally used for the buck strap's Prusik, I girth hitched through the snap...is this ok?

I have ~140' of unused 1/2" Pro-Master that I'm going to use as my temporary TIP that I advance up the tree using (just an RB at this point), and a Prusik loop out of the same stuff (plus a carabiner) to go along with it. It's jack leg as all crap, but I figure 1) I'm not high speed, 2) I'm using this for practice close to the ground, and 3) using the PM rope like this won't cause it to be unusable for pulling in the future, when I get for-real climbing rope.

Nuttier than squirrel turds, or not?

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

I'm going to get some of those steel insert cuffs ASAP. And another kind of flipline/lanyard.

And I took that piece of crap buck strap and reconfigured it with a little 30" Prusik and carabiner into something that might be useable. Whatcha think?

The end that was originally used for the buck strap's Prusik, I girth hitched through the snap...is this ok?

I have ~140' of unused 1/2" Pro-Master that I'm going to use as my temporary TIP that I advance up the tree using (just an RB at this point), and a Prusik loop out of the same stuff (plus a carabiner) to go along with it. It's jack leg as all crap, but I figure 1) I'm not high speed, 2) I'm using this for practice close to the ground, and 3) using the PM rope like this won't cause it to be unusable for pulling in the future, when I get for-real climbing rope.

Nuttier than squirrel turds, or not?

Personally, I'd want that girth tighter.. or dressed & permenantly set by lashing it or something.. Looks like it could just flip right out with no load while dangling or tangling..

Unless i was trying to use that as a 2-1 to bypass unions, id ditch the 6 wrap, use a directional prusik instead & a boat snap/dog snap to tend it one handed. Before you ask what that is.. think along the lines of a Shizll..

& If it's long enough to be a 2-1/deda, which i don't think it is unless in small tree.. throw another 6 wrap on there down there line & use it as your next connection.

 

[LordFarkwad]

Personally, I'd want that girth tighter.. or dressed & permenantly set by lashing it or something.. Looks like it could just flip right out with no load while dangling or tangling..

Unless i was trying to use that as a 2-1 to bypass unions, id ditch the 6 wrap, use a directional prusik instead & a boat snap/dog snap to tend it one handed. Before you ask what that is.. think along the lines of a Shizll..

& If it's long enough to be a 2-1/deda, which i don't think it is unless in small tree.. throw another 6 wrap on there down there line & use it as your next connection.

I'm digesting what you are saying, still...

You are correct, it is not long enough to be a 2-to-1. Followed your advice, but instead of a leash snap, I used a pulley to tend the directional Prusik. I'm unsure that I constructed a directional Prusik properly, but I will post a couple pics later. It seemed to work, but before I trust my life to it, I'm going to make 100% sure. The sewn-eye Prusik cord I got sucks; it's a little too stiff at the eyes, which did does weird/annoying things in some situations, it seems like.

The girth hitched tail actually wasn't load bearing since I never used it as a 2-1, so moot point on the hitch walking of the snap, I reckon.

Double wrapping the straps either worked like a boss, or my calves were much more used to the stresses placed on them this time by the spurs - I stayed on the tree for over 2hrs, more or less, this trip.

Running bowline for anchoring the moveable the in point and advancing it with me worked fine. I don't foresee this being an issue. I loosened my lanyard and flip line and tested my weight on it, and it cinched up and held around the trunk perfectly

The hip D-rings seemed a little crowded at first, with both a flipping and a lanyard anchored on them, but I flipped one around so they adjusted on opposite sides, and that seemed to help. Not sure if it would have been an actual problem anyway, having them adjust on the same side.

Being tied in 3 ways really made me feel pretty secure. Was able to go up about 30' without feeling the slightest amount of nerves. Tried some maneuvering, like circumnavigating the trunk; worked fine.

The tree was a little larger this time, as compared to last. Probably about 18" diameter. And it definitely helped having my feet farmer out towards the sides. Didn't gaff out once.

As to my jackleg rope situation...

Got the hitchhiker 2 in the mail. Decided to try it on 1/2" ProMaster. That seemed to work well also. It supported my weight without a problem and allowed me to descend and 'ascend' (which was really just me moving my body closer to the running bowline loop at the tie in point if I needed to), although it required a little muscle at times, and adjustment of the HH2's friction hitch length. However, I'd rather it be slow and hard to release than super duper easy, if I have to err one way. I'll get a for-real climbing line however to use with this. But in the mean time, this SEEMS to with with the hitchhiker for the intended purpose (emergency way out of the tree instead of having to back down it on spurs).

 

[evo]

I'm digesting what you are saying, still...

You are correct, it is not long enough to be a 2-to-1. Followed your advice, but instead of a leash snap, I used a pulley to tend the directional Prusik. I'm unsure that I constructed a directional Prusik properly, but I will post a couple pics later. It seemed to work, but before I trust my life to it, I'm going to make 100% sure. The sewn-eye Prusik cord I got sucks; it's a little too stiff at the eyes, which did does weird/annoying things in some situations, it seems like.

The girth hitched tail actually wasn't load bearing since I never used it as a 2-1, so moot point on the hitch walking of the snap, I reckon.

Double wrapping the straps either worked like a boss, or my calves were much more used to the stresses placed on them this time by the spurs - I stayed on the tree for over 2hrs, more or less, this trip.

Running bowline for anchoring the moveable the in point and advancing it with me worked fine. I don't foresee this being an issue. I loosened my lanyard and flip line and tested my weight on it, and it cinched up and held around the trunk perfectly

The hip D-rings seemed a little crowded at first, with both a flipping and a lanyard anchored on them, but I flipped one around so they adjusted on opposite sides, and that seemed to help. Not sure if it would have been an actual problem anyway, having them adjust on the same side.

Being tied in 3 ways really made me feel pretty secure. Was able to go up about 30' without feeling the slightest amount of nerves. Tried some maneuvering, like circumnavigating the trunk; worked fine.

The tree was a little larger this time, as compared to last. Probably about 18" diameter. And it definitely helped having my feet farmer out towards the sides. Didn't gaff out once.

As to my jackleg rope situation...

Got the hitchhiker 2 in the mail. Decided to try it on 1/2" ProMaster. That seemed to work well also. It supported my weight without a problem and allowed me to descend and 'ascend' (which was really just me moving my body closer to the running bowline loop at the tie in point if I needed to), although it required a little muscle at times, and adjustment of the HH2's friction hitch length. However, I'd rather it be slow and hard to release than super duper easy, if I have to err one way. I'll get a for-real climbing line however to use with this. But in the mean time, this SEEMS to with with the hitchhiker for the intended purpose (emergency way out of the tree instead of having to back down it on spurs).

If you’re feeling adventurous on that long eye, you could carefully cut the whipping and pull it apart. Then put the tapered core and put it back inside the cover. Tape and cut the tail tapers off and tie a stopper knot. Looks like it would buy you some extra length.

I am a little embarrassed for that hitch hiker on the three strand, if you want me to do you a favor I’d buy it from you.

 

[LordFarkwad]

If you’re feeling adventurous on that long eye, you could carefully cut the whipping and pull it apart. Then put the tapered core and put it back inside the cover. Tape and cut the tail tapers off and tie a stopper knot. Looks like it would buy you some extra length.

I am a little embarrassed for that hitch hiker on the three strand, if you want me to do you a favor I’d buy it from you.

So is that HH on 3-strand major league retard material? I used that because someone up above showed that the True Blue (only other option I have locally) flattens out under load and the hitch doesn't hold well.

If all I have to do is cut and tape to get that eye outta there, then I'm game. I gotta look up what you are talking about tho - never done that or seen it done.

Also, any solid recommendations on climbing line? I'm about to place an order from WesSpur for those steel pads.

 

[LordFarkwad]

So is that HH on 3-strand major league retard material? I used that because someone up above showed that the True Blue (only other option I have locally) flattens out under load and the hitch doesn't hold well.

If all I have to do is cut and tape to get that eye outta there, then I'm game. I gotta look up what you are talking about tho - never done that or seen it done.

Also, any solid recommendations on climbing line? I'm about to place an order from WesSpur for those steel pads.

Also just realized my secondary lanyard's friction hitch was not a knot, it at least one that has a name, I don't think. I changed it to a distel, and need to test how easy it is to take up slack in after it's been loaded by my 220lbs.

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

I'm digesting what you are saying, still...

You are correct, it is not long enough to be a 2-to-1. Followed your advice, but instead of a leash snap, I used a pulley to tend the directional Prusik. I'm unsure that I constructed a directional Prusik properly, but I will post a couple pics later. It seemed to work, but before I trust my life to it, I'm going to make 100% sure. The sewn-eye Prusik cord I got sucks; it's a little too stiff at the eyes, which did does weird/annoying things in some situations, it seems like.

The girth hitched tail actually wasn't load bearing since I never used it as a 2-1, so moot point on the hitch walking of the snap, I reckon.

Double wrapping the straps either worked like a boss, or my calves were much more used to the stresses placed on them this time by the spurs - I stayed on the tree for over 2hrs, more or less, this trip.

Running bowline for anchoring the moveable the in point and advancing it with me worked fine. I don't foresee this being an issue. I loosened my lanyard and flip line and tested my weight on it, and it cinched up and held around the trunk perfectly

The hip D-rings seemed a little crowded at first, with both a flipping and a lanyard anchored on them, but I flipped one around so they adjusted on opposite sides, and that seemed to help. Not sure if it would have been an actual problem anyway, having them adjust on the same side.

Being tied in 3 ways really made me feel pretty secure. Was able to go up about 30' without feeling the slightest amount of nerves. Tried some maneuvering, like circumnavigating the trunk; worked fine.

The tree was a little larger this time, as compared to last. Probably about 18" diameter. And it definitely helped having my feet farmer out towards the sides. Didn't gaff out once.

As to my jackleg rope situation...

Got the hitchhiker 2 in the mail. Decided to try it on 1/2" ProMaster. That seemed to work well also. It supported my weight without a problem and allowed me to descend and 'ascend' (which was really just me moving my body closer to the running bowline loop at the tie in point if I needed to), although it required a little muscle at times, and adjustment of the HH2's friction hitch length. However, I'd rather it be slow and hard to release than super duper easy, if I have to err one way. I'll get a for-real climbing line however to use with this. But in the mean time, this SEEMS to with with the hitchhiker for the intended purpose (emergency way out of the tree instead of having to back down it on spurs).

I don't understand.. "it's not load bearing so it's a moot point".. the scenario i mentioned (girth unrolling) would be more likley to happen when not loaded... Or in the middle of being loaded & unloaded.. & more likley to happen because if how large that eye is.. from the way it looks from here, all it would have to do is flip itself around the loop one time & the snap is gone..
See watch.. i barley helped this girth to come undone..
All it needs to do is loosen itself up a bit & it will walk itself the rest of the way if scenario is right or it's jiggling around, especially if the Cordage is to big for the bend radius your asking it to make....

As far as your hitches & digesting what I wrote.. Im no hitch aficionado, but your VT looks wrong to me. One of your wraps looks like it should be under while the other is over. When doing the X's, Top tail goes over, next it goes under, then back over.. I've noticed doing so helps keep them aligned. I have O time on a HH, so i couldn't tell you what hitches are used with it or whether what you have is legit... I don't know whether your supposed to tuck any legs if it or not, or if doing so interferes with the way it works.

Digesting what i said before - watch this video closely.. pay attention to what's on the lanyard & why. Every additonal peice of kit on it has a purpose to be able to use it as 2 seperate lines.. IIRC, none of it is optional, however there is other ways of achieving it (different hardware types).. just like there's 10 ways to skin evil cats..
Video -

Another way.. mechanical one side, minimalistic on the tail..

Even more minimal..
Ring does the work of the pulley

 

[Brocky]

Definitely don’t use the HH2 on the True Blue. The section I tried it on is now flattened into a rectangular cross section and won’t return to round.

 

[DSMc]

I really don't understand why the HH should be any different than using a hitch on True Blue, which is what this rope was designed for. Many ropes change shape under load and still work with a hitch or a hitch-based system. Maybe try a different cord or hitch configuration.
LF, the tail of the rope coming out of the HH would normally go through the carabiner, which makes tending easier. Also, that is a lot of hitch wraps for that type and size of rope. You might want to play around with less and see if things work better.

 

[Jonny]

That's strange that the True Blue doesn't go back to it's original shape. So if the HH can deform it, I imagine a cammed ascender like a Gibbs could do the same and leave a flat spot.
Never seen hitchhiker or any new school multicender on 3 strand before. Does it twist and hockle the rope a lot when descending? Nothing really inherently wrong or dangerous with it though.

How are you retrieving the bowline after you descend?

Is some of this stuff making more sense now that you're putting theory into practice? See how the climbing line with the hitchhiker can double as your second lanyard until you reach your TIP? Have you tried a 540° wrap around the tree with the lanyard for some extra stability? It's a good idea when negative rigging tops and you're expecting a ride or anytime you want to make sure you'll stay put.

 

[Brocky]

The dogbone and carabiner pressing the rope against the spine of the HH compressed it into a rectangular shape which doesn’t generate enough friction for the hitch to hold. There are only four corners for the hitch to rub against, instead of the full surface of a round rope.

I’ve run the section of rope through a Prusik hitch, a pulley, and a Munter hitch without success. Next will be a hole in a 2x4 just big enough to pull it though, hopefully squeezing it back into shape.

Because they can’t be used to descend, the cammer ascenders would only flatten small, isolated spots that probably are able to recover. The HH, that can descend, affects a larger area.