Secondary tie-in for spurring: choked split-tail climbing line -OR- running bowline -OR- ??

[flyingsquirrel25]

So here's my experience with "climbing": I hunt primarily out of a climbing stand, am not afraid of heights, and regularly sit somewhere in the 35'-50' range, if the tree doesn't have any large branches below that (I cut as I go). My main concern which started this thread wasn't that I want to be doubly tied in at all times, but that I wanted a quick exit, primarily. A backup never hurts though, right? Squirrel is the first one over ever heard express that steel core fliplines are potentially dangerous due to not being able to inspect the load-bearing components of the system (if I'm understanding him correctly).

Steel core failures:
http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threads/flipline-failure.36713/#post-540645

http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threads/steel-core-lanyard-failure.29907/

The two threads that point out the issues.

I’m always hesitant to use a carabiner as a cinch because I have seen them roll on the bark and open the gate. In particular a basil tie and a climb to 75’. Got down and the gate was open. If you must, make sure to orient the gate away from the tree in ALL situations.

 

[Jem4417]

You can do two carabiners opposing one another. Just an extra step

 

[RyTheTreeGuy]

Singing tree quickie for the win

https://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=15672

 

[DSMc]

Do any of you guys use a quickie as an end line clip-in tool on a bridge ring when switching to MRS? How about using 2 carabiners on the same end line for the bridge ring for fear that one will be insufficient?
When using a steel carabiner for a stem choked line in SRS I can unclip it and toss it over a limb above, clip it back to my bridge ring and be in a fully functional MRS. It just works.

 

[LordFarkwad]

Steel core failures:
http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threads/flipline-failure.36713/#post-540645

http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threads/steel-core-lanyard-failure.29907/

The two threads that point out the issues.

I’m always hesitant to use a carabiner as a cinch because I have seen them roll on the bark and open the gate. In particular a basil tie and a climb to 75’. Got down and the gate was open. If you must, make sure to orient the gate away from the tree in ALL situations.

Wow that's scary, FS. Wow. That seriously makes me question using a steel core flipline. What else would you recommend??

I purchased some True Blue 1/2" today to practice knots with. If I use this for my climbing line, can I make my own split tail Prusik/Blake's with it as well, and use that on a carabiner as my tie-in to my stationary, until I decide on and purchase a multicender?

 

[Jonny]

Thanks for that, I didn't know about any of those steel core failures. I've always used rope lanyards.

I purchased some True Blue 1/2" today to practice knots with. If I use this for my climbing line, can I make my own split tail Prusik/Blake's with it as well, and use that on a carabiner as my tie-in to my stationary, until I decide on and purchase a multicender?

It should hold you there in place, but you can't descend a stationary rope on just a friction hitch. You need something else to take some friction off, even if it's a munter hitch or figure 8. This is why we use hitchhikers and rope wrenches along with the hitch.

You can choke a webbing loop or sling on a spar and use a pulley or two carabiners to make a false crotch so you can use that rope MRS. True Blue is good for MRS too. Yes you can make a tied split tail with it for Blake's hitch. You could also buy any hitch cord you want for pretty cheap and try a bunch of other friction hitches.

MRS is a good place for beginners to start in my humble opinion.

 

[LordFarkwad]

Thanks for that, I didn't know about any of those steel core failures. I've always used rope lanyards.



It should hold you there in place, but you can't descend a stationary rope on just a friction hitch. You need something else to take some friction off, even if it's a munter hitch or figure 8. This is why we use hitchhikers and rope wrenches along with the hitch.

You can choke a webbing loop or sling on a spar and use a pulley or two carabiners to make a false crotch so you can use that rope MRS. True Blue is good for MRS too. Yes you can make a tied split tail with it for Blake's hitch. You could also buy any hitch cord you want for pretty cheap and try a bunch of other friction hitches.

MRS is a good place for beginners to start in my humble opinion.

Ok, maybe MRS is the way to go then. I'm thinking about so many new ideas (to me), that I am forgetting why I have eliminated certain options. Perhaps I was on SRS initially just because of not wanting the potential limitation of rope length. Hmmm... I'll have to retrace my steps on this and see if I can remember why I got so married to SRS.

Do you use 2-in-1 rope lanyards, a buck strap, a hip Prusik on a rope lanyard, or what?

 

[LordFarkwad]

Is the reason that MRS can be descended on using only a friction hitch but the SRS needs more (or an alternative hitch-replacement), is because in the MRS, the load is being split via the pulley/crotch between the friction hitch leg/tail and the working end connection to the harness?

 

[Jonny]

Yes, exactly.

MRS is old school and you can't ascend as quickly or easily as SRS. Every working tree climber should know it. You can work the tree with just a rope and harness if needed. Just makes sense to start with the basics.

 

[evo]

Wow that's scary, FS. Wow. That seriously makes me question using a steel core flipline. What else would you recommend??

I purchased some True Blue 1/2" today to practice knots with. If I use this for my climbing line, can I make my own split tail Prusik/Blake's with it as well, and use that on a carabiner as my tie-in to my stationary, until I decide on and purchase a multicender?

Steel cores are fine, just stick with Yale, and replace like you would a rope

 

[LordFarkwad]

So, all I'm using this for - ever - will be as a secondary lanyard and for immediate, emergency decents. The ascent advantages of either system are kind of irrelevant when using spurs for ascent, are they not? For example, could I simply advance a choked SRS (RB/Y or carabiner-like config) along with my flipline, and leave a descender attached the whole time? This might be total gobbledygook since it's 1:30am...

Also, I want to make sure I understand correctly, about SRS with spurs for ascent: at all times - when ascending and descending and working along the spar, my only connection to the climbing line would be through a friction hitch or a friction-hitch-replacing device (Hitchhiker, etc.), correct?

I really appreciate the feedback, guys. This is excellent stuff.

 

[flyingsquirrel25]

Wow that's scary, FS. Wow. That seriously makes me question using a steel core flipline. What else would you recommend??

I purchased some True Blue 1/2" today to practice knots with. If I use this for my climbing line, can I make my own split tail Prusik/Blake's with it as well, and use that on a carabiner as my tie-in to my stationary, until I decide on and purchase a multicender?

I use a simple 16 strand climb line with a coreless splice approximately 12’ Long. Dead eye on the back end and ISC triple snap hook on the working side. I always try to find a lanyard material that is completely different in looks than any of my climbing or rigging gear and as bright and contrasting in a tree as possible.
The true blue is great for knot tying and split tails and rigging. Never liked it as a climbing line.

Steel cores are fine, just stick with Yale, and replace like you would a rope

Evo is correct. I wasn’t trying to scare you, just point out that steel may not always be the answer. He is also correct with Yale’s maxi flip (what it was called several years ago). It’s construction is different than the elcheapo’s which makes it a superior product.

 

[flyingsquirrel25]

Singing tree quickie for the win

https://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=15672

Not so much especially with a new guy. A biner has less quirks and easier to orient to avoid problems. Mind you I’m not advocating a biner either.
The quickie is a great tool to put in place once and done. On and off sucks especially in the cold. And the slick pin tool gets hung up on everything.

Do any of you guys use a quickie as an end line clip-in tool on a bridge ring when switching to MRS? How about using 2 carabiners on the same end line for the bridge ring for fear that one will be insufficient?
When using a steel carabiner for a stem choked line in SRS I can unclip it and toss it over a limb above, clip it back to my bridge ring and be in a fully functional MRS. It just works.

I feel the quickie is too fumblie to use in place of a biner. I have used it to connect a second TIP, mrs, to my bridge because I didn’t have the appropriate hardware. But if it’s avoidable, a biner is easier. Never hooked 2 into an eye back to my bridge. If I’m afraid the one won’t do it’s job, the cut off wheel fixes it and I replace it. If a completely healthy biner fails, I’m doing something wrong and need to re-evaluate my career choices.

 

[rope-a-dope]

Using spurs and lanyard, flipping up a spar, can include a climb line tied around the trunk with a running bowline. The climb line is tied, dressed and set, but held loose and open, parallel to the lanyard by your grip on both ropes. Each flip, the RB advances up the trunk with the lanyard and as soon as you stop, the climb line can choke around the stem and you can descend, provided the friction device is all set up before you tie your RB. Cut limbs as you go up and you dont have to untie it. Tied in twice the whole time (with a little rope dressing).

PS get a hitchhiker

 

[moss]

I’m always hesitant to use a carabiner as a cinch because I have seen them roll on the bark and open the gate. In particular a basil tie and a climb to 75’. Got down and the gate was open. If you must, make sure to orient the gate away from the tree in ALL situations.

Carabiner choked anchor, never on a remote anchor, use when it's arm's length, steel and loaded around a spar during a takedown, bullet proof. An argument I'll never win ;-) I always orient the gate up or opposite the direction of load.
-AJ

 

[moss]

If anyone knows - a local place has some Climb Right Aluminum spurs. Total crap?

Not total crap but might frustrate you with the old school leather foot and legstraps, you'll probably need to punch new holes in the straps to get the tightness adjustments where you want them.
-AJ

 

[moss]

I hate that bowline video. Definitely use a cinching knot on a biner but that bowline with the Yosemite tie off was not tied properly

Apples and oranges with the Bowline as life support "issue”. Terrible as a tie-in to a carabiner, excellent for a running/cinching anchor. For a Running Bowline these days I simply put a stopper knot on the tail and set the Bowline tight. I don't like a Yosemtite tie-off as the sole stopper, so I'll only use it if I want the tail redirected, will still put a stopper in the tail after the Yosemite.
-AJ

 

[LordFarkwad]

Using spurs and lanyard, flipping up a spar, can include a climb line tied around the trunk with a running bowline. The climb line is tied, dressed and set, but held loose and open, parallel to the lanyard by your grip on both ropes. Each flip, the RB advances up the trunk with the lanyard and as soon as you stop, the climb line can choke around the stem and you can descend, provided the friction device is all set up before you tie your RB. Cut limbs as you go up and you dont have to untie it. Tied in twice the whole time (with a little rope dressing).

PS get a hitchhiker

Thanks, rope. Sounds like that's what I'm closing in on, at the recommendation of several others (the HH/HH2). Although, I just spent some time on WesSpur looking at descenders with the idea of just staying connected to the climbing line the entire time using one of those (but everything else the same as your description there; choked TIP, advance flipline TIP together). However, descenders look to be the same cost as multicenders, so there's not much if anything to gain by using one of those, it appears. Perhaps a bit of compactness?

 

[Jem4417]

Apples and oranges with the Bowline as life support "issue. Terrible as a tie-in to a carabiner, excellent for a running/cinching anchor. For a Running Bowline these days I simply put a stopper knot on the tail and set the Bowline tight. I don't like a Yosemtite tie-off as the sole stopper, so I'll only use it if I want the tail redirected, will still put a stopper in the tail after the Yosemite.
-AJ

I finish the tie off with I believe it’s called a barrel knot where the tale comes out. I’m all for the debate but that video doesn’t do that knot justice

 

[LordFarkwad]

Have I screwed myself by getting 200' of 1/2" True Blue? I'm looking at descenders and they all like they are for smaller than 1/2" rope. It appears that 1/2" limits my options, at least where descenders and rappel devices are concerned . And it's at the upper end of the Hitchhiker's capacity.