Yaw, Pitch & Roll

[treevet]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't work for me at least.

I make every cut with absolute confidence....but when it doesn't quite work out any after-talk of yawing or pitching would be pointless.

And if it did come about where anticipating any kind of excessive movement then I am surely not doing my best job as a slinger....either that or I think the extra risk is worth while.

I do not make a connection between aeroplanes and cranes....or trees for that matter.

I do agree with universal signals/communication as a platform to build from, if thats the point then great....but this particular example relates to movements that shouldn't come to play in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the proverbial "perfect world" we all would know what every piece is going to do after rigging and detachment. But the nature of the inconsistencies of each piece in distribution and weight and shape and length and lean, etc. renders this impossible.

You tee them up, try to ignore the sand traps and water hazards and out of bounds and then let em fly....not unlike blowing a leader between two houses. The big difference here is you have another person involved in the op. Because of that you, the tree expert, may want to inform the layman, the op...what the tendencies of the piece may be.

As I have said before I cannot vision any circumstance that you would want to set up a pick where the piece flips but imo if you are a highly experienced tree crane guy and you say you have never had a piece flip on you...you are a liar.

Going as high as you can in a leaning and highly foliated piece but not getting in too weak of an attachment point/s and then being restricted at the place of the cut/detachment by not being able to go into TOO big of wood by possibly going out of the chart.....well there is one scenario.

I am all for standard terms and these, as Jamin eloquently said are all the possible movements the piece could make. If one is offended by a nautical or aviation jargon just change the words to any other terms and give a picture like in the thread with those words to the crane op.

This is all about the piece having "movements that shouldn't come into play" and alerting the op to react to them because he would not expect them. In easy picks you are pretty much on auto pilot with little or no need for communication.

 

[Jamin_Mayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't work for me at least.

I make every cut with absolute confidence....but when it doesn't quite work out any after-talk of yawing or pitching would be pointless.

And if it did come about where anticipating any kind of excessive movement then I am surely not doing my best job as a slinger....either that or I think the extra risk is worth while.

I do not make a connection between aeroplanes and cranes....or trees for that matter.

I do agree with universal signals/communication as a platform to build from, if thats the point then great....but this particular example relates to movements that shouldn't come to play in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

I too rig my loads knowing how they could move and eliminate movement when I rig.

And some have took this thread as if there is movement on all picks, therefore there needs to be these terms used. Not so at all.

As you agree, it's just a platform to build from.

As far as these terms being used, they were around for centuries before tree guys decided to put tree limbs on the end of a crane cable. How so? We are finding the center of gravity/mass on these loads and we are eliminting the pitch and roll when we do so. And, there may be some yaw to the load... For example, windy conditions will manipulate yaw, sway, and surge.

To me it makes sense to use them... based upon the above statement and my many other iteration's.

I know people. I'm a little OCD with stuff.

 

[Reg]

It just doesn't figure into my personal game-plan, thats all I'm saying Jamim/Dave....and if I was a teacher it wouldn't figure as an option either.

A crane-op cannot initiate any of these movements (less he had a grab) so it wouldn't come in an instructional form.

Now and then I might inform a crane op that something is going to tilt and then straighten up again....either way 'dont do anything'. Working out of sight the terms wouldn't come into play, again, 'dont do anything'.

I honestly cannot think of an instance in the time I've been working with cranes that knowing/using these terms would've helped anyone involved.

If it works for others, great.

 

[treevet]

[ QUOTE ]
It just doesn't figure into my personal game-plan, thats all I'm saying Jamim/Dave....and if I was a teacher it wouldn't figure as an option either.

A crane-op cannot initiate any of these movements (less he had a grab) so it wouldn't come in an instructional form.

Now and then I might inform a crane op that something is going to tilt and then straighten up again....either way 'dont do anything'. Working out of sight the terms wouldn't come into play, again, 'dont do anything'.

I honestly cannot think of an instance in the time I've been working with cranes that knowing/using these terms would've helped anyone involved.

If it works for others, great.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I guess if I fess up Reg, not many picks are going to be yawing or pitching (esp since I and my main sub got anti spin cable on our rigs with no swivel in the ball) but their could conceivably be roll (2 times in decades for me)and in such an instance I just gonna tell the op "hey guy, the piece has a small chance of rolling (flipping)" and what he should do in such an instance, and he's gonna know what the term (flip) means I think lol.

Man I just love this overanalyzin' stuff. Thank God for forums.

 

[Jamin_Mayer]

[ QUOTE ]
...Now and then I might inform a crane op that something is going to tilt and then straighten up again....


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the word "Tilt" used in photography?

I kid!

 

[Reg]

I try to do our best talking before the job starts....and always reassure whereby 'to expect a little movement but ultimately dont react to it....unless something breaks, but otherwise I will always be positioned out of harms way'. Nothing worse for me than a trigger happy operator thinking he's doing right. Although often you find out later that its born from enduring bad climbing technique in the past.

By far the greatest concern for us has always been deflection at full reach and the load drifting further away from the crane after the cut is made....a motion which I dont believe falls into the Y P & R category either.

Thereafter there's really not much else gets spoken. He updates me on the load capacity, I direct him to the load, etc.

Like I said, if it has value to others then great....but for me it would potentially confuse the normal game-plan rather than help it.

 

[dbl612]

enough with this yaw, pitch, and roll already! try to balance the load as best you can, understand how a crane moves, and direct the operator where he needs to be to minimize movement. its hard enough to get a climber to understand and use basic crane hand signals (rotating finger up or down for hoist/lower, thumb up or down to boom up/down, and arm direction to indicate requested swing movement) or of course verbal by radio. keep it simple.

 

[treevet]

The biggest variables I have found over the decades is lift off on pieces embedded in buildings. I have had numerous close calls while of the roof, tied to the tree and a one memorable giant one that almost decapitated me when it jumped out of the pictured Montessori School about 15 years ago that we are cleaning English ivy off a couple of weeks ago in attached pict.

We got a Newspaper front page on that 4' dia bur oak uproot after storm that was laying in the top roof. Had a whole gallery watching me just waiting for me to die I think. They left after the near accident as all the danger was gone. We had to set up way away.

 

[Jamin_Mayer]

[ QUOTE ]
enough with this yaw, pitch, and roll already! ... keep it simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

Enough? If you don't agree. Okay. But, why stop the conversation?

Keep it simple? Wouldn't what I'm suggesting, keep it simple? --Just asking.

[ QUOTE ]
--Frankly, the subject of stabilizing a load is rhetorical. And I don't mean that offensively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again. The subject of keeping the load stable is a "no brainer". And like many others here, my loads are stabilized well.

If you don't like the idea of using the terms, I'm okay with that. But, please folks, do not misunderstand my point

 

[Jamin_Mayer]

Maybe less than 10 years ago, SRT for tree work was laughed at. But, it is now changing. I wouldn't be surprised if less than 10 years from now DDRT will be laughed at.

We can all choose to use general terms, local slang, or made up terms for describing the motions of a load to a green horn. Or, we can find common terms, from other industries, and make them universal for our industry.

Again, I'm not trying to make people mad. I'm merely suggesting using universal language (if you will).

I have a feeling that most of the supporters of my idea, don't want to stick their neck out... And those who are resistant, will find a situation that arrizes on a job site (in the near future) where this communication would help.

 

[treehumper]

I think Reg has really made the best point. Our communications with the crane op is along the lines of what we want them to do not what the load might do. Attempting to educate crane ops in these terms would likely fail given the lack of use in other crane operations.

 

[treevet]

Every crane op ultimately (unless an employee of the climber) approves or has veto power over absolutely every pick. Like it or not, the climber sets em up but the op is the boss.

They aren't even close to a passive player in the pick. It is their equipment and at the bottom line, their liability with every pick.

I think in these economic times more and more crane companies will choose to venture into tree work as another source of income. It is happening in my city.

Conversely to what you said....crane ops are actually TEACHING tree climbers and companies how to do tree assisted crane removals. I know Bartlett is being taught by one of my subs.

 

[Reg]

[ QUOTE ]
Every crane op ultimately (unless an employee of the climber) approves or has veto power over absolutely every pick. Like it or not, the climber sets em up but the op is the boss.

They aren't even close to a passive player in the pick. It is their equipment and at the bottom line, their liability with every pick.

I think in these economic times more and more crane companies will choose to venture into tree work as another source of income. It is happening in my city.

Conversely to what you said....crane ops are actually TEACHING tree climbers and companies how to do tree assisted crane removals. I know Bartlett is being taught by one of my subs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ive told crane-ops to #### off home before now Dave, the tree will come down today with or without you. I mean no disrespect to anyone. Who is the boss? Although that was to do with the work load, not the load limit. Only ever worked with 3 crane ops that had done treework previously, if you can call it that. Did they teach me about treework? About as much I could offer them on running a crane.

I'd well and truly expect to get veto'd if I could not estimate what a pick weighed or what it would do after being cut through....same as if a crane op couldn't answer what his load limit was upon request....but that just stating the obvious. You make it sound like we're dealing with the unkown, or a game of chance. Most contention I have with an op is whether he can safely reach and has room to lay the pick down, not whether he can take it from the tree.

Bartlet is being coached about treework by one of your subs. Whats that got to do with YP&R, or anything else for that matter.

I cant relate your post to where this thread is up to Dave, pardon me.

 

[dbl612]

reg, not questioning your knowledge or abilities, but in the states, the op is ultimately responsible for accidents, unless he can prove otherwise. although you treat crane removals as second nature because of your experience, the vast majority of climbers are just recently embracing crane tree removals. most feel it is a threat to their employment, and fight it until they have done a few and they realize it is an aid to them and makes their job easier. the learning curve is steep around here, realize this is an alien concept, you cut something and it goes up instead of down. whole new set of rules. another factor is the confidence factor for ops, because most have limited feeling for tree weight until they have done it for a while, and they realize that after the pc. is cut from the tree, no matter what the weight, they own it, and they better be able to handle it safely. if there is a problem, its theirs alone not the climber,not the crane owner, or anyone else. best regards, tom.

 

[treevet]

Little over sensitive Reg. Thought we got past that?

We are speaking of communication (ypr or whatever), but indirectly and ambiguously we are talking about liability. You told an op to xxxx off? Why? You also had probs with your first op you encountered when you hit the pnw. Why so strong feelings? Liability and control. He is not gonna let you dump his crane.

Chances are he is not a Treebuzzer and may not have heard of your rep. He knows your first and second (liability) concern is #1 your as s and #2 targets (not his crane).

Ofcourse I consider the entire movement of the "pick" not just the detachment. Anyone knows that often you will be reduced more in capacity in the set down as opposed to the detachment. Your job is to set it up and offer an "approximate" weight but then the ball is in his court to take or refuse the pick and if taken, to get it down safely.

. I always wait for or demand a nod if we are close to maxing out in either place in my guestimation. Even Reg can not give an exact weight of the pick and neither of you knows for certain the chart capacity at detachment location unless you have dropped there at least once already and got a reading.

I would rather have it that way and since we are obviously talking marginal picks (not no-brainers such as way too much weight or way under cap.) here the hired op is going to first consider his or his boss'es equipment and not let you have "your way" regardless of how much experience you portend to have.

Since we (I) am talking liability, if an accident occurs just who do you think the injured party will go for and this can answer some questions.

Not likely the op has any chance suing you, the employee in their eyes, if their crane goes down (ey?).

Chances are the (hypothetical) injured party so far as building damage, etc. will sue in order 1.The company owner and 2.The crane owner. You likely won't even be considered. Not only because those were the two entities contracted and subbed in the eyes of the property owner/injured party but also likely because they are the ones with the big buck$ in their opinion...., not you.

That is why this is where the control of the pick is ultimately with the op .....unless there is a long established relationship with company owner to climber and crane co. owner has deligated absolute decision making to the climber, which, again, is unlikely and imo....unwise for both parties involved.

 

[Reg]

[ QUOTE ]
reg, not questioning your knowledge or abilities, but in the states, the op is ultimately responsible for accidents, unless he can prove otherwise. although you treat crane removals as second nature because of your experience, the vast majority of climbers are just recently embracing crane tree removals. most feel it is a threat to their employment, and fight it until they have done a few and they realize it is an aid to them and makes their job easier. the learning curve is steep around here, realize this is an alien concept, you cut something and it goes up instead of down. whole new set of rules. another factor is the confidence factor for ops, because most have limited feeling for tree weight until they have done it for a while, and they realize that after the pc. is cut from the tree, no matter what the weight, they own it, and they better be able to handle it safely. if there is a problem, its theirs alone not the climber,not the crane owner, or anyone else. best regards, tom.

[/ QUOTE ] Totally understand and appreciate that Tom. I go above and beyond to keep people happy, for the best part there is rarely an issue. Thanks

 

[Reg]

[ QUOTE ]
Little over sensitive Reg. Thought we got past that?

We are speaking of communication (ypr or whatever), but indirectly and ambiguously we are talking about liability. You told an op to xxxx off? Why? You also had probs with your first op you encountered when you hit the pnw. Why so strong feelings? Liability and control. He is not gonna let you dump his crane.

Chances are he is not a Treebuzzer and may not have heard of your rep. He knows your first and second (liability) concern is #1 your as s and #2 targets (not his crane).

Ofcourse I consider the entire movement of the "pick" not just the detachment. Anyone knows that often you will be reduced more in capacity in the set down as opposed to the detachment. Your job is to set it up and offer an "approximate" weight but then the ball is in his court to take or refuse the pick and if taken, to get it down safely.

. I always wait for or demand a nod if we are close to maxing out in either place in my guestimation. Even Reg can not give an exact weight of the pick and neither of you knows for certain the chart capacity at detachment location unless you have dropped there at least once already and got a reading.

I would rather have it that way and since we are obviously talking marginal picks (not no-brainers such as way too much weight or way under cap.) here the hired op is going to first consider his or his boss'es equipment and not let you have "your way" regardless of how much experience you portend to have.

Since we (I) am talking liability, if an accident occurs just who do you think the injured party will go for and this can answer some questions.

Not likely the op has any chance suing you, the employee in their eyes, if their crane goes down (ey?).

Chances are the (hypothetical) injured party so far as building damage, etc. will sue in order 1.The company owner and 2.The crane owner. You likely won't even be considered. Not only because those were the two entities contracted and subbed in the eyes of the property owner/injured party but also likely because they are the ones with the big buck$ in their opinion...., not you.

That is why this is where the control of the pick is ultimately with the op .....unless there is a long established relationship with company owner to climber and crane co. owner has deligated absolute decision making to the climber, which, again, is unlikely and imo....unwise for both parties involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

That’s a big post Dave, with no YP&R, so at least there’s some point in a sense. BTW, we would need to create a new YP&R hand-signal? Not everyone uses radios, right.

Nobodies being sensitive, I just couldn’t understand where your post fit in (still dont), and that you were generalising about the work relationship quite some.

I’ll tell anyone to **** off if they develop a bad attitude....but mostly they stick around and it’s quickly forgotten about. I’d expect nothing less if the roles were reversed either.

And you’re wrong, not everyone considers what might happen when you lie a pick down, and how those attachment Lombardy limbs that were so strong under tension blow apart as its layed down right beside a glass window....especially the ground guys who go running in prematurely. Many times I’ve heard ‘I can take that in 1’....’yeah, where you gonna put it’. ‘Switch to the big-hook’ is often another one. ‘but the single cable is faster’. ‘I got nearly 5 tons here, I kid you not’!

Irrespective, the situation is generally amicable. No dictating, vetoing or ‘bosses’ involved.

I personally handle peoples cranes like they’re the last one earth, you’ll be lucky to find a more considerate and respectful climber. If I ever make it to Cinci Dave you’ll realise that your big post/info was quite misplaced. We must be getting crossed wires just lately.

 

[treevet]

I am the off subject offender so a little amused that post resulted in a photo op Reg lol.

yes I am generalizing and you were not (and usually are not) the ONLY subject matter of my post although you are a crane climber (and so am I).

Your confidence is admirable but we may want to consider the thin line to be tip toed between confidence and OD lol again.

I luv ya tho anyway my friend Reginald Coates.

 

[Reg]

[ QUOTE ]
I am the off subject offender so a little amused that post resulted in a photo op Reg lol.



[/ QUOTE ]

Selling me short again Dave, man you are hard work at times.

That photo followed only the example I made about the big hook and little hook. That snapshot was one such true example of an op having no idea the difference in weight between willow log and an oak....not a 'hey everybody look at me' photo by any means.

The small hook (4t max) on that particular jap crane is single cable, while the big hook is a 4. You can just make out if you look closely on the attached photo, I have no close-ups unfortunately. Is that typical of cranes on the US? cause I have no idea.

So are you going to start yelling yar pitch and roll on your jobs or not. Tell the truth.

 

[treevet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am the off subject offender so a little amused that post resulted in a photo op Reg lol.



[/ QUOTE ]

Selling me short again Dave, man you are hard work at times.

That photo followed only the example I made about the big hook and little hook. That snapshot was one such true example of an op having no idea the difference in weight between willow log and an oak....not a 'hey everybody look at me' photo by any means.

The small hook (4t max) on that particular jap crane is single cable, while the big hook is a 4. You can just make out if you look closely on the attached photo, I have no close-ups unfortunately. Is that typical of cranes on the US? cause I have no idea.

So are you going to start yelling yar pitch and roll on your jobs or not. Tell the truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me try it out..."HEY Pal!, I gonna cut this here sucka off and when I duz, it gonna pitch a little and then ya better bees ready for a little dose of yawin. While ya boom it over to da chipper I gonna chew on dis here jelly roll, ready?...here she blows!"

How's dat?