New Base Tie-In-Point

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Sometimes as people i think we can over complicate anything. Check this video out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhIKI0AhzIY

this is the base tie i use.

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This is all I use. I think that this could even slip a little bit to absorb energy in the event of a short fall. The only think that it lacks is a Screamer. I think if you intentionally wrap your rope to slip a little under high load, you are pretty good if you aren't using a super static rope.


But, you can't sell this system, and its so easy to see what is happening to a lay-person.
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Hi Steve.

Firstly, let me first say having read your 'back after 2 years' that Im full of admiration for you brother, truly, welcome back.

I gotta be honest though mate, having looked at your pics here, that set-up looks borderline ridiculous for the purpose....as seems to be a growing trend of over complicated base ties. Totally over-thinking, wasteful of time and hardware.

I read through your spar set-up query too. Who actually thinks this stuff up ? It is not progress. Put your spurs in properly and you need never worry about configuring and relying on some complex, multi-part retrievable choker....that you dont even need. Im shocked at the apparent increase of climbers who are seemingly afraid to spur a few feet down a tree. Dont join that club Steve, its a slippery slope. Climbers have been safely and efficiently using spurs for over a hundred years. If it aint broke, dont fix it. Have faith in your self. All the best.
 
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Hi Steve.

I gotta be honest though mate, having looked at your pics here, that set-up looks borderline ridiculous for the purpose....as seems to be a growing trend of over complicated base ties. Totally over-thinking, wasteful of time and hardware.

I read through your spar set-up query too. Who actually thinks this stuff up ? It is not progress. Put your spurs in properly and you need never worry about configuring and relying on some complex, multi-part retrievable choker....that you dont even need. Im shocked at the apparent increase of climbers who are seemingly afraid to spur a few feet down a tree. Dont join that club Steve, its a slippery slope. Climbers have been safely and efficiently using spurs for over a hundred years. If it aint broke, dont fix it. Have faith in your self. All the best.

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Reg,

I've gotta agree with you. I like the ability to lower from the BTIP, but it can be very simple. KISS. I have been using spikes for 100 years and that is why I dont like to use them now. Spikes, even when used properly, are hard on the knee joint.
 
Reg and Mark,

Thanks guys for the post. It's pretty interesting that you guys shared that opinion. I wasn't sure anybody out there didn't want to back up the double back up to the back up. I understand what you're both saying. I think there is a place for the spar choker in different situations. Blanket policies never work for anything. For instance your eloquent discussion of 1 handing saws. My base tie was a running bowline. I got on here and figured I must be doing something wrong since i'm the only guy who doesn't back up to the back up. So I bought a little gear and set it up. Other than the use of time and the learning curve it is beneficial to be able to lower from the base tie just in case. However Sherbrook tree's vid seems pretty simple too. Round turns around the trunk and half hitches. I guess I'm just the guy who thinks these ideas are really cool and plays around with them for a while. They either stick or my gear box in the garage grows.

Either way.....thanks for your honesty! Reg you're my tree guy hero anyway. My son and I love the vids on you tube.
 
I'll agree with Reg and Mark, in that simplicity (straight-forward nature) of systems and solid and application of skills is paramount. Not everything can be accident proof, as it often comes down to the competency of the "doer".

I'm not against basal rescue systems or cinched climbing/lanyard systems. In some cases, it's up to the climber whether or not to use any particular system for the job at hand. In other cases, it may be company policy that determines whether or not to employ certain systems.

If it's determined that the climber is to use a system, at least think it through, critically, to ensure simplicity and usability.
 
To derail further, (apologies) the choking system of whatever configuration is not about the spurring down a few feet for me. it is about the ability to exit the tree speedily if necessary. I don't care how many loggers and tree guys hang on just hooks and buckstraps. It doesn't make sense to me to be stuck in a tree without an immediate exit strategy. I've been swarmed by hornets while working a spar, and luckily I was able to bail quickly because I had an actual TIP to descend from. I was tied into another tree in that case, but the principal stands. That is the same reason that I do not utilize ascent only systems. Something goes wrong, my hands are tied. No thank you.

Bonner that's a good system. I gotta start setting that up, it seems a little smoother than the one I use.
 
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To derail further, (apologies) the choking system of whatever configuration is not about the spurring down a few feet for me. it is about the ability to exit the tree speedily if necessary. I don't care how many loggers and tree guys hang on just hooks and buckstraps. It doesn't make sense to me to be stuck in a tree without an immediate exit strategy. I've been swarmed by hornets while working a spar, and luckily I was able to bail quickly because I had an actual TIP to descend from. I was tied into another tree in that case, but the principal stands. That is the same reason that I do not utilize ascent only systems. Something goes wrong, my hands are tied. No thank you.

Bonner that's a good system. I gotta start setting that up, it seems a little smoother than the one I use.

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Well done for speaking you mind macscwan....nothing wrong with a little derail. Ive been chased by hornets too, they are badass....especially when they just hover in front of your face giving the steely eye. I never had it happen on a spar though....would be quite the oversight to take the whole top of a tree out and only notice them at the latter end of the job. I assume your situation was a little different.

With that said I've chunked down thousands of other spars in the past, without interruption.

I posted here in the hope that I can offer Steve some advice....the guys been to hell and back recently so if I can help get his confidence where it should be then thats a good thing. You guys can tie and add whatever stuff you want on your jobs, I dont care.

You only need your climbline for the spar-choker Steve. Forget all that other $hit, mate. Do you use a rope wrench ?
Thats all you need. Retrievable tails and all that, dont bother....unless its you're last cut and you're otherwise gonna rappel down to drop the whole spar right after. As for that punk you mentioned gaffing out on your job....his problem, and not relative to your skills and capabilities whatsoever.

Heres a good video by a young man who works for a very well respected company in Oz. Some food for thought at least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GO225gxHN0&list=UU-BosNzq26vWEg1RJPND9Uw&feature=c4-overview
 
In addition... Choking the spar gives your feet and legs a break when working the spar. Especially when having to reset a rigging block every cut. If you have rigged out a large 100 ft. spar by negative blocking, you can surely understand how nice it is to be able to take the pressure off your legs while setting everything up...not to mention increased mobility.
 
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In addition... Choking the spar gives your feet and legs a break when working the spar. Especially when having to reset a rigging block every cut. If you have rigged out a large 100 ft. spar by negative blocking, you can surely understand how nice it is to be able to take the pressure off your legs while setting everything up...not to mention increased mobility.

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah it is a relief to hang in the saddle once in a while Mike, especially if you're slinging a great big wide spar, its a good option to know for sure....but it really dont hurt that much without either....nor is it difficult if you're good at your job.

But for just basic chunking down which I think Mike C was first referring to in that other thread, or rigging -3ft diam trees its a waste of time for the best part. If a dude messed around like that here he perhaps just wouldn't get hired.
 
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Reg and Mark,

Thanks guys for the post. It's pretty interesting that you guys shared that opinion. I wasn't sure anybody out there didn't want to back up the double back up to the back up. I understand what you're both saying. I think there is a place for the spar choker in different situations. Blanket policies never work for anything. For instance your eloquent discussion of 1 handing saws. My base tie was a running bowline. I got on here and figured I must be doing something wrong since i'm the only guy who doesn't back up to the back up. So I bought a little gear and set it up. Other than the use of time and the learning curve it is beneficial to be able to lower from the base tie just in case. However Sherbrook tree's vid seems pretty simple too. Round turns around the trunk and half hitches. I guess I'm just the guy who thinks these ideas are really cool and plays around with them for a while. They either stick or my gear box in the garage grows.

Either way.....thanks for your honesty! Reg you're my tree guy hero anyway. My son and I love the vids on you tube.

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Steve and others, I would never have clicked on this thread,(we use a basal tie system that works well and I wasn't interested in looking at complex systems) but I saw that Reg had entered a post here, so I read this last page.

I think another reason why Reg contributed his opinion to this thread was this:
Sometimes on a forum, certain areas of the forum or the whole forum can become too ONE SIDED with certain similar opinions on how to do things. If no one from the "other side" steps in to contribute, then it snow balls and keeps progressing in that direction. Then it seems like "this must be the only way to do this".

Just like you said, [ QUOTE ]
My base tie was a running bowline. I got on here and figured I must be doing something wrong since i'm the only guy who doesn't back up to the back up. So I bought a little gear and set it up.

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When I see a trend and do not share that opinion, I feel like I have to enter a post. It often pisses many off at first, but I feel it's my duty. I'm really glad to see how you took Reg's input.

Don't worry, LOTS of people on here love to make complex systems and if they enjoy that, so be it. Often Rec climbers or low production businesses have more time and enjoy tinkering with things.

I'm glad Reg spoke up and I like seeing Reg's change these past few years. he is more outspoken and not too worried anymore about everyone having to Love him. He doesn't keep his lips so tight like I feel he used to.
 
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he is more outspoken and not too worried anymore about everyone having to Love him.

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Are you suggesting I was hoping to find some sort of man-love, David ? Listen, not now - not ever. Thanks
 
I like Angus's vid pure simplicity....we should not be afraid of gaffing out...I set my spurs good for every cut but when moving it's just stepping...and I just do a choke tie on a spar with my climbline and the lanyard, I used to choke a biner lots but now use a running bowline with my wrench setup....whatever floats one's boat...my base tie is a triple anchor hitch with a half hitch..not lowerable but I only use it mostly for ascending....then switch to a top TIP...
 
Reg is my hero. That vid with Angus is hilarious, he is obviously a beast.

I think tying a running bowline makes the most sense if you are climbing on a base tie. Its quick safe and secure. Tying two butterfly knots above that, whether you even have a dedicated kit or not is not a huge extra ordeal. It does however provide an instant, safe method of lowering a climber...that doesn't require prusiks, backups etc.

I really believe, that in almost all instances of a climber not being able to rescue themselves that the climber is either pinned, or unconscious with a lanyard. For the most part base ties rescue systems, in my opinion, are unnecessary. BUT tying two extra knots is no big deal and it doesn't take anything else that I don't already have (climbing line, munter hitch, snap, figure 8, porty etc...).
 
If the tail of the climbers line is on the ground, tie his tail off to the upper butterfly and all you need is a biner with a munter to lower, don't even need a second line...doesn't get much simpler or faster than that, trunk wraps maybe but they have disadvantages as well. Bonner converted me to the butterflies over the summer, I was already tying a running bowline why not take 30 seconds to tie the butterflies, and go ahead and clip a biner to the lower so its there if you need it
 
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Reg is my hero. That vid with Angus is hilarious, he is obviously a beast.

I think tying a running bowline makes the most sense if you are climbing on a base tie. Its quick safe and secure. Tying two butterfly knots above that, whether you even have a dedicated kit or not is not a huge extra ordeal. It does however provide an instant, safe method of lowering a climber...that doesn't require prusiks, backups etc.

I really believe, that in almost all instances of a climber not being able to rescue themselves that the climber is either pinned, or unconscious with a lanyard. For the most part base ties rescue systems, in my opinion, are unnecessary. BUT tying two extra knots is no big deal and it doesn't take anything else that I don't already have (climbing line, munter hitch, snap, figure 8, porty etc...).

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Agreed with the two alpine butterflies to add another line....
 
I think tying a running bowline makes the most sense if you are climbing on a base tie. Its quick safe and secure. Tying two butterfly knots above that, whether you even have a dedicated kit or not is not a huge extra ordeal. It does however provide an instant, safe method of lowering a climber...that doesn't require prusiks, backups etc.

I really believe, that in almost all instances of a climber not being able to rescue themselves that the climber is either pinned, or unconscious with a lanyard.

Nick,

Your system is not instant, it requires someone on the ground to do stuff after the mishap. Take the wasps, if it takes 30 seconds to rig, that is way too long; those little bastards can do a lot of damage in 30 sec. It also requires a designated line, 8, couple beaners, something to cut line with (an activity that is frowned upon in many rescue circles).

The system we use requires one eye sling, one beaner, a Petzl Rig or l'd and one rope (300' 11mm static) It is set up before the mishap and does not require cutting a line. Every rescue situation is different and there are some that cutting lines exist, but building a system that requires cutting a line when other options exist is what I am questioning.

Some folks dont think having the option of being lowered from the ground is worth it, or practical. During a mishap in tree work this is one of the few useful things a trained ground worker can do. The way we use it the access line stays in the tree for the duration of the job. After being used by the climber for access, it becomes an access line for a rescuer if needed later in the job.

No passing knots, no cutting lines, simple, no extra gear, no hockeling of line, build in backup the 8 lacks, better automatic feathering of friction not built into lowering with an 8; what's not to like about it?

300' static is a bit bulky and requires some coin to obtain, The Rig or l'd costs more than an F8,some training for others on the team required.

Do you recommend dumping the rescue line out of the bag with your system. Having the end of the the line sneak up on the person doing the lowering has been know to kill people in other high angle arenas.

No system is perfect, but this is just the one we prefer to use. Take it or leave it. I'm just chiming in to state some reasons why we use this one. And, it's below zero again on a Saturday morning and I'm sitting on my [pick a different word] by the fire pecking at this stupid confuser.
 
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