ISA Code of Ethics/ CA with lowballer illegal op.

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Sean ...

Noticed you are in Olympia.

My favorite boss / supervisor, ever, is retired up there now. A horticulturist who was the head of the Univ. of Portland campus landscape departement back in the 80s and maybe early 90s. May be the best of my mentors. Hope to drive up and see him sometime. He volunteers at a garden there I recall.

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Lowell Cordas? One of my customers. He volunteers at Yashiro Japanese Garden. Let me know if you are coming up sometime.

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Exactly - Lowell.

The Japanese Garden does sound familiar like what he mentioned.

Can holler when it's time to head up. Proably next spring. Hoping to add on a day or two in the Olympic National Forest afterward too.
 
Well Thanks for all the interest in this topic, I figured I should post something here since it was my add and now that I know people have been going on about me behind my back I figure I should add my part of the story...

First off Sean, if you have a problem with me you should be strait up and contact me direct instead of going behind my back and trying to get my certification revoked, that isn't a good way to build a healthy community of arborists. I can see your concern, but singling me out and posting my add on a discussion board seems to me like some sort of attack, a better way to go about it would have been to raise the issue without posting my personal add, unless you were trying to attack me.

I am attending evergreen state college for sustainable agriculture and I have classes 4 days a week which doesn't leave me much time to find work. I got denied financial aid because I never signed up for the draft and I don't have rich parents to pay my way through school. I am a pretty decent arborist and I try to convince people to do the right thing with educated knowlege and experience. The only reason I am saying this is because the client base I am shooting for usually doesn't get that, they get some old logger with a chainsaw telling them to top their trees or severely wind thin them using spikes etc... I am broke and so are my clients, which by the way I have gotten 2 calls in the 2 weeks I have had the post up. I would love to get licensed and bonded and insured but at this point I cant really afford it, and apart from going to the food bank to get free food, I don't have any other way to support myself besides getting a meager low paying job or doing what I love and have a passion for working with trees and helping promote a healthy tree canopy.

I could post your craigslist add here where you go on and on about how all tree workers must be liscenced and bonded and start calling you names for hurting my business too, but i think that would be childish at best to try and slander another peers work on a forum of colleagues.

as for legality and ethics, i worked for a company that was licenced and bonded and insured and still spiked every tree they ever climbed, recommended topping trees, and scared old grandmas on fixed incomes into cutting down their perfectly healthy trees because they were going to blow over, and that's just the beginning as most of us know... and as far as legality is concerned, paying money to some rich insurance company for them to sit around and jerk off all day and getting licensing from a state that treats students like unimportant numbers, it doesn't seem to me like I'm the one doing immoral things.
 
Funkytreehugger-
I started out the same as you. No money, no rich parents (or parents at all for that matter), and I have earned everything I have. While it is understandable that you don't have liability insurance or workmans comp, you should attept to purchase these as soon as possible: for yours and the client's benefit. I am telling you from experience, lowballing does not earn you business, it just makes you work harder for less money. Advertise that you are a college student, subcontract climb for other companies, and get the occasional job. But be transparent about your lack of insurance. Insurance is a significant cost, but it is only one of many. Good luck.
 
What does the license cost anyway.Insurance for just yourself and one groundman is probably cheaper than you think,your cost are based on what your payroll is.
 
This is becoming interesting. When schooling on the GI bill 1970 thru 1973, the $325.00 a month I got from the government paid the rent, utilites and groceries. The beer, gas and fun money came from tree work. I didn't even have a car. I bicycled back and forth, and found tree jobs door knocking while commuting from Sebastapol to Santa Rosa Junior College. 9 miles one way twice a day.

Yeah, those were the good old days alright, and they may not hold any merit today, but I can certainly sympathize with a young person struggling to get by on odd jobs while going to school.

More power to you, young man.
 
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Well Thanks for all the interest in this topic, I figured I should post something here since it was my add and now that I know people have been going on about me behind my back I figure I should add my part of the story...



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Now with that said ...

You wrote that you don't seem to be doing immoral things. How can one advertise illegally and not be doing immoral things?

You have the opportunity to improve the overall image of the industry, as well as promoting business legally. My first imporession of the ad is that its at cross-purposes with Washington State law.

If anyone decides to advertise as unlicensed, or advertise illegally, they have set themselves up as targets of conversation.

Whether or not someone goes to WA state office about you behind your back, may be a mute point. They are not obligated to go to you first. Tax payers support a government financially, and if they work with that government to uphold the law, pretty hard to complain about that kind of group effort.

On the ISA issue, that may be different. A lot of it seems vague, and not cut and dry like WA laws and rules.

As far as your reasons or excuses about insurance companies, you win no talking points. I pay plenty of insurance to companies, including Farmers, who covered damage for my last accident.

What is worse than a rich insurance company, is a tree worker that makes a huge mistake someday, and does not have the money to remedy the matter.

If a climber so much as left a small round piece of branch under a leaf, and someone rolled their foot on it, slipped and hit their head, insurance would be looking pretty darn handy at that point. It can be the smallest little thing. And I don't think you, I or anybody on this forum is so good we can guarantee to never make that kind of small mistake.

I can sympathize with some problems that are tough to overcome in your situation.

On the other hand, there was no need to publicly advertise an association between yourself and the ISA certification to get work. The CA part could easily have been culled.

You wrote that you don't seem to be doing immoral things. How can one advertise illegally and not be doing immoral things?

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You wrote that you don't seem to be doing immoral things. How can one advertise illegally and not be doing immoral things?

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To dig your hole deeper, you referred to the rot-gut of tree care companies to try and build your platform to stand on. Odds are, it's the same company that I called the City of Lake Oswego about, not mentioning their name, with a request to put something in their newsletter regarding that practice.

While I use companies like that as an example of who not to hire, you on the other hand use their example to justify your agenda.
 
For crying out loud, give the kid a break! He's young and trying to get through school. He'll grow up and do the responsible things that a career entails. He's going through the learning and growing phase. Give him a little encouragement, advise and direction, instead of all this negative energy.
 
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Mario. You are a real piece of.....

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You may be a real piece of incompletion. In regards to the reply to your post the other night. The part where you wrote not being able to find tree services from that website. Not sure how you missed it. It was in black and white.

To all else who work legitimately (say in Washington) who may also have a tough time of making ends meet.

It should be reasonable for the climber who posted the ad, and replied just a bit ago, to likewise understand if you have to do what you have to do too.

If illegals are cutting into your life-line, it should be very acceptable that you turn that person in for a fine.

How could anybody blame you for doing what you need to do.
 
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You may be a real piece of incompletion. In regards to the reply to your post the other night. The part where you wrote not being able to find tree services from that website. Not sure how you missed it. It was in black and white.



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I wasted enough of my time on you.
 
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For crying out loud, give the kid a break! He's young and trying to get through school. He'll grow up and do the responsible things that a career entails. He's going through the learning and growing phase. Give him a little encouragement, advise and direction, instead of all this negative energy.

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Jerry ...

In one way I would agree with you, except that some of us are barely scraping by these days, while working legally, and he is exactly what is undermining many family's finances.

The other part that may be worth considering for later feedback, is that he made absulutely certain to add the "Certified Arborist" to his ad.

When people use "Certified Arborist" in an add, they are using the reputation aspect of the title. They are using the best that the community believes in pertaining to the title, to lure in work. In that case, its seems really odd and counterproductive to water-down the certification with promotions that are not legal.

Had he omitted the Certified Arborist part, even though the ad would not promote legal work, the nature of it would quite a bit different.

Thoughts on that??
 
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I wasted enough of my time on you.

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I'm not quite sure what you do with your time. But here is part of the WA laws and rules quoted earlier:

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RCW 18.27.010
Definitions.


The definitions in this section apply throughout this chapter unless the context clearly requires otherwise.

(1) "Contractor" includes any person, firm, corporation, or other entity who or which, in the pursuit of an independent business undertakes to, or offers to undertake, or submits a bid to, construct, alter, repair, add to, subtract from, improve, develop, move, wreck, or demolish any building, highway, road, railroad, excavation or other structure, project, development, or improvement attached to real estate or to do any part thereof including the installation of carpeting or other floor covering, the erection of scaffolding or other structures or works in connection therewith, the installation or repair of roofing or siding, performing tree removal services, or ...

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The "offer" to undertake is where advertising

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cool.gif
 
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Well Thanks for all the interest in this topic, I figured I should post something here since it was my add and now that I know people have been going on about me behind my back I figure I should add my part of the story...

First off Sean, if you have a problem with me you should be strait up and contact me direct instead of going behind my back and trying to get my certification revoked, that isn't a good way to build a healthy community of arborists. I can see your concern, but singling me out and posting my add on a discussion board seems to me like some sort of attack, a better way to go about it would have been to raise the issue without posting my personal add, unless you were trying to attack me.

I am attending evergreen state college for sustainable agriculture and I have classes 4 days a week which doesn't leave me much time to find work. I got denied financial aid because I never signed up for the draft and I don't have rich parents to pay my way through school. I am a pretty decent arborist and I try to convince people to do the right thing with educated knowlege and experience. The only reason I am saying this is because the client base I am shooting for usually doesn't get that, they get some old logger with a chainsaw telling them to top their trees or severely wind thin them using spikes etc... I am broke and so are my clients, which by the way I have gotten 2 calls in the 2 weeks I have had the post up. I would love to get licensed and bonded and insured but at this point I cant really afford it, and apart from going to the food bank to get free food, I don't have any other way to support myself besides getting a meager low paying job or doing what I love and have a passion for working with trees and helping promote a healthy tree canopy.

I could post your craigslist add here where you go on and on about how all tree workers must be liscenced and bonded and start calling you names for hurting my business too, but i think that would be childish at best to try and slander another peers work on a forum of colleagues.

as for legality and ethics, i worked for a company that was licenced and bonded and insured and still spiked every tree they ever climbed, recommended topping trees, and scared old grandmas on fixed incomes into cutting down their perfectly healthy trees because they were going to blow over, and that's just the beginning as most of us know... and as far as legality is concerned, paying money to some rich insurance company for them to sit around and jerk off all day and getting licensing from a state that treats students like unimportant numbers, it doesn't seem to me like I'm the one doing immoral things.

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I hope that this is readable/ cohesive. I apologize if its may be a bit disjointed at times, or ramble. I've worked about the last 17 days in row, or more. Got up this morning at 550am to take my two employees to the N.A.T.S. Climbing and Aerial Rescue Training at Vermeer today. Just got home.


Hello Funky Tree Hugger,
I want to re-iterate that I never once bashed any skills you have. I accepted/ expected that after 7 years and being a CA, you should have some respectable skill and experience.


After just re-reading the copied CL ad in my original post, I now see that you posted a phone number. This still DID NOT identify you. I have not even looked into the ISA Code of Ethics. Your other ad did have your name. Part of my post was an information seeking question, part hypothetical question to TBers, part blowing off steam.

To tell you the truth, I've been working too hard, too many hours a day to have the time, even if I wanted to investigate the ISA COE. My attempts to build a respectable business that offers fair prices, without scare tactics--only the best information that I have, good tree preservation practices, removals, etc, has been blood, sweat, and tears--oh, and debt. If I spent 10 hours on any given day, between physical or mental work for my business, it would be a short day.




Its unfortunate that you have had bad employment experience with a legal L/I/B tree business. There are lots of such businesses. That doesn't mean that everyone that is L/I/B is as such.


The only trees that I top are wildlife snags in appropriate locations. I don't spike any non-removals. I climb for access to all trees unless its unsafe (I've use a bucket about 7 times in the last two years). I practice tree care based on best management practices I have available. I try my best to inform customers, including when it costs me to tell them that their tree doesn't need work. I want a long term business relationship with customers.
Sounds like we both love trees.



As I said in a previous post, it would be better if you charged full market value for the services. Some reasons:

-makes CA's look like they offer more quality than the "hold my beer tree service" by charging market value. By charging "incredible discounted rate you reduce the market value.

-makes tree work look more like a profession, not just a tree chopping job

-would help you financially so that you would not have to take as many jobs, thereby not undercutting the numerous ISA CAs running legitimate businesses in Olympia that rely on their revenue to pay their own expenses. Perhaps this is the largest way that your discounted, high quality tree services will take revenue away from other people.
Also, it would help you, if you so chose, to have the money to get legal and protect everyone involved. It sounded like you won't have time to work for a company for the duration that you are in school, so this sound like multiple years. I wouldn't begrudge you for doing some side work to get a legal business going, which would force you to charge fair market value.


Basically, neither of us want to compete with Hold My Beer Tree Service. Neither of us wants to scare old ladies. Both of us want people to know about, care about, and take care of their trees.


It costs me more money to run a safe crew and do good work for people that if I ran dangerously and abused customers trust. I am on every job and do 95% of the climbing, and I work on the ground, too, when I get down. Unlike a lot of things I've seen on other people's job sites in Olympia, I do my best to take care of my guys. I don't recklessly risk other peoples lives for profit.

My stump grinder engine just blew up. It'll cost me about $2000 to have it fixed. I recently had to put a bunch of money into my chipper. I just had to pay my general liability insurance and commercial auto insurance. Second Financial Quarter taxes are due at the end of the month.

Do you see why I would be upset about a CA low-balling (or maybe that isn't the right word, but I don't know what to call it so other people would understand, so if that is a poorly chosen word, I apologize).

I didn't have a silver spoon in my mouth as a baby. I didn't have rich parents putting me through college (as a matter of fact I performed two Americorps Terms of Service with the Nevada Conservation Corps to help pay off college loans). That was after I spent three years working with troubled/ adjudicated youth. I'm not some big business guy that got set up with a business.
I do have a dump truck, 1990 ex-asplundh rig, that I couldn't really afford when I bought it, but financed because I got a really great deal, same story on the stump grinder (an antique). I was really, really, really tired of pitch forking out chips from my pick-up by headlamp after working 10 hours, so that I could do it all again the next day. As a matter of fact, I started with an old van before I even had a pick-up and little red trailer from Fred Meyer (yes the biggest little fold-up one they had.



Regarding my CL ads that you mentioned-
You could put up my CL ads, but I didn't understand what was objectionable about them. I'm not sure what names you would call me/ what you would find objectionable. I don't know what is objectionable about informing people that all legal businesses must be X, Y, and Z.


Regarding "I don't have any other way to support myself besides getting a meager low paying job or doing what I love and have a passion for working with trees and helping promote a healthy tree canopy".
This is a reality for a lot of college students. You have skills and experience that I suspect have been hard earned that a lot of college students don't.
I don't see it as you can only do one or the other.
Have you called any/ all the CAs in Oly to inquire if they have any weekend positions available, or any other tree companies to offer them a CA available to work weekends?
I have been running around crazy, and missing opportunities to sell more quality tree care jobs do to lack of time. Its really hard to find a qualified crew lead. I would love to have a CA running a professional show on the weekends, when all the neighbors are around and watching. If it wasn't that my wife's work schedule is fixed M-Th, I would work every weekend and get more business because of it. I could turn away more removals that help to make the ends barely meet, and get more tree preservation. I need a qualified supervisor/ climbing arborist flexibly for the weekends, but all I get are inquires from climbers that can "do anything on hooks".

Regarding "but singling me out and posting my add on a discussion board seems to me like some sort of attack",
Again, I don't believe that I ID'd you, as I could have, not did I contact the ISA, or have even looked at their website lately.

Regarding contacting you first/ good community
Yes, probably would have been more appropriate if I really way trying to ID you and get your Arb Cert revoked. And at the same time, I think you could have dropped an email or phone call to all the local CAs (probably about 10). Both would have been better community builders.




What I see at this point is
mistakes were made on both ends.
Misunderstandings, as well.
What I see is
I wasn't personally attacking you as a person trying to finance the high cost of higher education by providing quality work.
You weren't maliciously trying to take money out of my personal wallet when times are tight, and good businesses who care about their employees and product/ service lose out to businesses that will exploit/ endanger their workers to pad their wallets and fuel their fancy rigs.



Heck, who knows what might come of it all. Maybe you need a flexible weekend schedule and not fulltime hours, good groundmen, and not to have to chase down jobs where you will have to work uninsured. Maybe I need a good part-time crew lead. Good opportunities don't come all the time. Maybe we should explore it, off forum.

I apologize for you feeling attacked. I felt attacked in a different way. Whadda ya say, worth a chat? PM me if you like.

Sean
 
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