ISA Code of Ethics/ CA with lowballer illegal op.

So, to bump this thread again and hopefully clarify the original question.....

If CAs are expected to adhere to a prescribed code of ethics, and, if by definition, the word ethical suggests conducting one's self legally, then by offering illegal work, or to work illegally, would the one who bound by the code of ethics then be in violation of that code of ethics and thus subject to consequences deemed appropriate by the certifying body?

If that is the question, then the ISA might want/need to weigh in on this subject.

As far as ISA having teeth regarding certification credentials I know they have investigated questionable use of the words "Certified Arborist" by non ISA certified individuals in our market and have supposedly taken action in at least one case.

Perhaps they have the intention of doing the same with the COE. Wasn't there some hot discussion recently about them requiring CA's to agree to adhere to the COE?

That certainly would be thier first step in such a case.

Just my two pennies worth!
 
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I suspect that you see the illegality based on state law. The ethics of selling an oneself under a (rightfully attained, I suspect) professional accreditation, then offering to undercut everyone else by working illegally is the ethical part.

What say you to that?

[/ QUOTE ]OK you backed up the illegal part, so the best channel needs to be the state. You're not a bad sport by asking for a level playing field. You'd have to read the ISA ethics agreement to see if it's worth taking up with them too. Maybe so.

"Even if he doesn't have liability he's OK as long as he's up front about it."

Um, as much as I support much of your one-man band perspective, due to personal bias and reason, I do not think this statement is defensible. As long as you tell the owner you're uninsured then that is okay? as a general policy this sounds like trouble, and also contrary to the ethics agreement.
 
Figured I'd duplicate this post which was in reply to Tophopper. Others can go back to his posts for context.

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I just scrolled through the entire list of licenses within that link Mario. Tree service is not even listed as a service requiring a license. For someone who sat on the licensing board you sure seem to have your head up your a$$.


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Let's see how "entire" the search was by Treehopper

When I listed the WA link, some folks may not want to dig into the information.

Here is what's beneath that page and links a layer or two ...

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RCW 18.27.010
Definitions.


The definitions in this section apply throughout this chapter unless the context clearly requires otherwise.

(1) "Contractor" includes any person, firm, corporation, or other entity who or which, in the pursuit of an independent business undertakes to, or offers to undertake, or submits a bid to, construct, alter, repair, add to, subtract from, improve, develop, move, wreck, or demolish any building, highway, road, railroad, excavation or other structure, project, development, or improvement attached to real estate or to do any part thereof including the installation of carpeting or other floor covering, the erection of scaffolding or other structures or works in connection therewith, the installation or repair of roofing or siding, performing tree removal services, or ...

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The "offer" to undertake is where advertising falls, and some folks uneducated in business are unaware of this.

Some states may not have the abuse by contractors that caused the need for west coast licensing. One region may not be able to justify it's needs by what another region does.


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I use to the think being a CA was something special but its just a really easy test that any high school drop out can pass with a little study time.Thats all it is ive seen people who have never climbed a tree pass the test.They need to raise the bar make the test harder and put in a field test also audit the canidate in the field-plus help start local and state arborist licesnes with manditory insurance requirements-you know like plumbers and electricians

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I do be Jimmy has fianally seen the light. Welcome home my son.
 
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"Even if he doesn't have liability he's OK as long as he's up front about it."

Um, as much as I support much of your one-man band perspective, due to personal bias and reason, I do not think this statement is defensible. As long as you tell the owner you're uninsured then that is okay? as a general policy this sounds like trouble, and also contrary to the ethics agreement.

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Sure it sounds like trouble, probably is. My point though, is the customer makes the choice. As long as they're informed, they should have that right. What if they don't care if you have insurance, for instance when the tree isn't anywhere near a target, it's up to them whether to demand insurance or not.

I'm for liability insurance, WC too if you have employees. If nothing else, good insurance is a competitive advantage. But it should always get back to the customer having the choice.

...and I don't care about the ethics agreement, ethics are personal, they can't be regulated or enforced.
 
Bonding for tree services changed last summer. And changed for stump grinding companies. All tree services have to carry a bond, but not stump grinders. Something to do with removing material from a property.

The last 4 years have had a ton of winter storms and everyone with a saw and truck became a tree service. Now with slow economy and no storm work, people are eating their own so to speak. Working for cheap just to keep employees and gas in the truck. Thats just life.

Code of Ethics is one thing, but fighting people working for free is a losing battle. I would say this is a buyer beware situation. Homeowner needs to make sure they a covered before work starts.

I am working on certification right now and hope it will open some doors for me.

If this gave you a headache, I'm sorry.

Dan
 
My personal belief is that the insurance industry is a parasite on our society..... adding to the cost of almost everything....but producing nothing. Large companies self insure for a good reason.

I believe the ISA is closer to being a trade union than anything else. I no longer belong.
 
wow, unbelievable post. Do you seriously think this guy is a threat to your business and to arboriculture?

I cant believe that anyone in this forum has never done tree work without insurance. How did you all get started?
Have you never done side jobs? Props to the kid for working his way through school, getting certified, and good luck to him. If your in his area, you should be giving him all support and guidance that you can. Not be trying to knock him down. good lord.
 
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My personal belief is that the insurance industry is a parasite on our society..... adding to the cost of almost everything....but producing nothing.

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Don't get me started...
 
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wow, unbelievable post. Do you seriously think this guy is a threat to your business and to arboriculture?

I cant believe that anyone in this forum has never done tree work without insurance. How did you all get started?
Have you never done side jobs? Props to the kid for working his way through school, getting certified, and good luck to him. If your in his area, you should be giving him all support and guidance that you can. Not be trying to knock him down. good lord.

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The man knocked himself down. Now don't know if you bothered to read my reply, but I never advertised work illegally, and started legit. What is hard to "believe" is that you or some others can't grasp the availability and means of how success can be obtained legally.

Now ... a note to all others who are likeminded with me on this ...

I look at this scab guy and his scab jeering squad this way:

Take a produce store - no, 2 produce stores. Store "A" has an apple end cap with mostly good apples, with a few rotten ones. Then store "B" has an end cap with mostly purtrid rotten apples, but a few good apples? Which store will you buy apples at? They both have some good apples. Me ... why of course I will go to store A and select from the bigger assortment of good apples.

Now, compare that to the unproductive whining about the ISA CA test, licensing, etc.. Of course the ISA test is not perfect. It could surely be raised to a higher bar. Licensing does not make every contractor good.

But in our state - Oregon - in the entire pool of licensed landscapers and tree services, and Certified Arborists, there are by far more good apples than bad apples.

But in the group of workers who are working illegally, unlicensed, or, without a certification, that's where there are far more bad apples from what I've seen. By far - no question about it. In THIS region.

So where is the foolish homeowner going to look for a contractor? Well in the illegal or uncertified end-cap or course. Where the hunt and search for quality is more time consuming and risky. And where is the wise homeowner going to look? Why in the legal, licensed and certified end-cap of course. Where the selection of qualified professionals is more abundant.

I also compare certification to citizenship, and un-certified as being like a "green card" in regards to priviledges. In the professional arena these days, even if someone without certification does good craftsmanship, they can easily restrict their professional movement in culture without arboricultural "citizenship" papers.

That's more or less much of the "demographics" of the trade based on what's going on in Oregon. I'm sure if I went to other states, the mixture would be much different.
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Re: ISA Code of Ethics/ CA with lowballer illegal

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You can't win this battle by fighting the lowballers, you're waaay outnumbered. you have to rise above them.

You don't want the kind of customers they attract anyway do you?

Educate your customers without dissing on anyone specific, they, in turn, will educate others. Win by being smarter, not cheaper or meaner. [/quote

preach on brotha blinky!
 
i think the real issue here is that he is advertising which is a mistake. I have never felt the need to advertise at all and particularly not advertise that I am cheap!

I sometimes even think I sould like to make business cards without a phone number on them so I could give it to people I dont want to call me. Advertising to the general public that you do dirt cheap tree work is foolish. He will learn Im sure.

You are right that insurance and work comp arn't that hard to get and well worth the expense but you have to learn that. I didnt get it until I missed out on a bunch of sweet jobs cause I didnt have it. Then, I got it as quick as I could possibly round up the dough.

I didnt have to know how to deal with insurance agents or workmans comp audits to pass the CA exam. Being an arborist doesnt really have anything to do with the ins and outs of running a bonified business. I passed the CA exam without knowing an inkling of any of that stuff. I didnt ever really cross my mind. All I wanted to do was climb trees. Thats still all I want to do.

I got workmans comp after I realized the people that worked with me sometimes here and there were working with me more and more and they needed some protection. After that, my prices really jumped and cut me off from an entire segment of the population that actually needs the most tree work done.
Ironically, I spend a lot more time now shearing yew bushes and massaging hawthorns, japanese maples and the like for for the big estates in the suburbs.

Meanwhile I look out over a city with dead ash and elm trees standing around everywhere and no one can afford to do anything about it.

Sad.
 
Re: ISA Code of Ethics/ CA with lowballer illegal

Amusing that someone scoured my site, noting PPE violations. Did I not wear a hardhat when making a design plan - LOL

Some folks just don't get the point of the simplicity of the thread. If someone needs a license, and licensing is available, do it, especially if it's required to advertise. Its not one of the small inconsequential matters of the trade. Its an upper tier business issue.
 
Regarding the bond. What I can tell you is that the WA Dept. of Labor and Industries requires it, whether it seems necessary or not.

One part of the completion bond/ surety bond, I believe, would cover a situation where a contractor (which now, for about a year, includes tree contractors in WA state) starts a project but doesn't finish it. A scenario: Company X starts a project. An injury prevents further work. HomeOwner contacts bonding agency for completion of the work at the specified price, per written contract. Bonding agency pays for another Contractor to finish, then goes after Company X for balance due, after payment per the terms of the original contract.

I, as well, don't accept payment, or at least deposit the check, until all is completed, and I get a signed "Acceptance of satisfactory completion" from the HO.

Useful or not, its required, its expensive, I got fined (later waived by getting within compliance) by the State of WA Dept. of Labor and Industries.

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I'm glad that some people got back to the underlying question (re-railed) and had some good responses and viewpoints.



I'd like all to know that I called him low-balling, nothing to do with his skills whatsoever. I think that got some people all defensive/ aggressive. I said this based on the text of his ad. Perhaps I could have chosen a better way to say that he would be operating cheaper than any legitimate business because he wasn't incurring the expenses of a professional (adhering to legal requirements of the industry) business.

People went off on whether or not things were or were not legal requirements. I may have been too simple in stating that it was illegal.





I think that people trying to get started in their own business often start under the table, for lower than market value for professional service.
I'm willing to say that I did for a short time while getting a pick-up/ trailer and equipment enough to start.

I do think its commendable for someone to pursue more education.
I also think that each of our choices effect other people in a ripple effect, regardless of intention. Someone planning to finance their way through school for probably several years, maybe more, maybe less, seems to be a lot different than someone having smaller ripples in the pool.

Times are tough for a lot of people, homeowners, students, employees, employers, government...

I know that I was never approached by anyone having a lot of high quality skills, moving to the area, and wondering about work opportunities. I actually can use a skilled arborist that can work occasionally.






Regarding the previously mentioned expenses being related to having a crew, I think that this is only true of a percentage of bookkeeping expenses related to payroll/ employee taxes, whereas all the others are incurred by an business, whether one person or many.
 
Sean ...

Noticed you are in Olympia.

My favorite boss / supervisor, ever, is retired up there now. A horticulturist who was the head of the Univ. of Portland campus landscape departement back in the 80s and maybe early 90s. May be the best of my mentors. Hope to drive up and see him sometime. He volunteers at a garden there I recall.
 
Not to undermine any of the positive and constructive responses here but....What demographic is actually shopping for tree work on Craigslist? If "you" are afraid of loosing work to people advertising on CL are you putting up ads daily on CL?

I do hear what is being said about undercutting the market by not having the legitimate business expenses. There will always be that element out there, Certified or not. Most reasonable people will be able to make a good decision and pick a professional company.

After all that is who I prefer working for, someone who cares about their trees not the ones finding the cheapest contractor.
 
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Sean ...

Noticed you are in Olympia.

My favorite boss / supervisor, ever, is retired up there now. A horticulturist who was the head of the Univ. of Portland campus landscape departement back in the 80s and maybe early 90s. May be the best of my mentors. Hope to drive up and see him sometime. He volunteers at a garden there I recall.

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Lowell Cordas? One of my customers. He volunteers at Yashiro Japanese Garden. Let me know if you are coming up sometime.
 
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Not to undermine any of the positive and constructive responses here but....What demographic is actually shopping for tree work on Craigslist? If "you" are afraid of loosing work to people advertising on CL are you putting up ads daily on CL?

I do hear what is being said about undercutting the market by not having the legitimate business expenses. There will always be that element out there, Certified or not. Most reasonable people will be able to make a good decision and pick a professional company.

After all that is who I prefer working for, someone who cares about their trees not the ones finding the cheapest contractor.

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I get a lot of good business off of CL. It is not just for cheapskate shoppers. I believe that by presenting myself as professional arborist that does tree care, preservation, proper pruning, low-impact work, as well as removals, that I weed out most low-bid jobs.

Craigslist seems to be different on the west coast. It is used by all sorts of businesses. I may be mistaken, but posting on it also seems to drive up my company with search engines, but this is mostly speculation.


The big concern is that an experience ISA CA is advertising to work with low, low prices because he is seemingly without insurance an licensing. While this is speculation that he is without insurance and licensing, I will say the he posts on CL as unlicensed, and does not display all the legally mandated information, such as the legally mandated contractor's license information. I know nothing more about this guy than he claims 7 years crew lead experience and coming to Olympia to attend Evergreen College (possibly for the science curriculum, which is much more solidly based than the rest of the Evergreen Liberal Arts curriculum).

I believe him to be a skilled arborist, having heard from a friend of his through TB that he is top-notch.
I'm not doubting these qualifications.

Seems like he might be someone with skills, love of trees and under the table pricing which is in direct competition for customers that want skilled arborists' services.
 
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I do hear what is being said about undercutting the market by not having the legitimate business expenses.

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I agree in some measure but, consider that some businesses have more expenses than others simply because of the way they're run. Arborist liability insurance is cheap enough that pretty much anybody can afford it, one or two jobs will pay for an annual policy.

If you want to do volume, you have to gear up and hire a crew though... major ongoing costs right there. You HAVE to sell a LOT of jobs just to stay in business. If you don't care about volume, one or two guys and a car with a roomy trunk will do the job because there are guys you can hire with bobcats and dump trucks lined up to do cleanups. One good two day job will sustain you and your ground man for a week.

The results have more to do with customer focus, personal integrity and work ethic. The little guy can often produce better results than the assault team with four trucks and eight guys... for less money. Safer too because we don't have to try and pack four jobs into a single day.

I find that I'm undercut more often by bigger companies desperate for jobs than by jacklegs.

I would be happy to see North Carolina require licensing for arborists so long as it was focused on knowledge and customer service qualifications rather than the volume of money you can give to insurance companies and government.

Artificial barriers to entry (like bonding and requiring a GC license) are anti-competitive and un-American.
 
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