ISA Code of Ethics/ CA with lowballer illegal op.
- Thread starter southsoundtree
- Start date
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, but mooonlighting isnt illegal, nor is working without insurance. It may be illegal to work without licensing depending on area, but many areas dont even require it.
I think some people just have a sense of entitlement and automatically assume because someone offers work for dirt cheap that they are hacks. I dont agree with this type of marketing tactic, but big deal, these guys are out there. Suck it up I say. I dont see anything alarming about that ad.
[/ QUOTE ]
I should have put in the original post that this is an illegal operation. In WA state, a tree company that offers his services must be licensed, insured, and bonded.
I thought that by posting the ad it would be apparent that he is operating without insurance, as a regular company has.
The state of WA did not contact all tree services when they changed the requirements for bonding, in addition to worker's comp, general liability, and licensing. Instead I got a fine of $1000. The Dept. of Labor and Industries, suspended the fine on the condition that I got bonded within 30 days (only cost me about $800 to become a general contractor, not LOL.)
I suspect that commercial auto insurance is also required.
So, in the end, he may very well be offering high quality work, but no protection from damage, no license, no protection if he or someone working for him is injured, etc, etc.
What do you think of this, as I said originally, illegal operation?
Fair enough, but mooonlighting isnt illegal, nor is working without insurance. It may be illegal to work without licensing depending on area, but many areas dont even require it.
I think some people just have a sense of entitlement and automatically assume because someone offers work for dirt cheap that they are hacks. I dont agree with this type of marketing tactic, but big deal, these guys are out there. Suck it up I say. I dont see anything alarming about that ad.
[/ QUOTE ]
I should have put in the original post that this is an illegal operation. In WA state, a tree company that offers his services must be licensed, insured, and bonded.
I thought that by posting the ad it would be apparent that he is operating without insurance, as a regular company has.
The state of WA did not contact all tree services when they changed the requirements for bonding, in addition to worker's comp, general liability, and licensing. Instead I got a fine of $1000. The Dept. of Labor and Industries, suspended the fine on the condition that I got bonded within 30 days (only cost me about $800 to become a general contractor, not LOL.)
I suspect that commercial auto insurance is also required.
So, in the end, he may very well be offering high quality work, but no protection from damage, no license, no protection if he or someone working for him is injured, etc, etc.
What do you think of this, as I said originally, illegal operation?
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
I agree. This CL posting sounds like a professional ad.
mdvaden
Participating member
- Location
- Beaverton. Oregon
[ QUOTE ]
I should have put in the original post that this is an illegal operation.
[/ QUOTE ]
Either way, the ad is still unprofessional by this region's standards.
Wonder what Treehopper will do my my next post below
I should have put in the original post that this is an illegal operation.
[/ QUOTE ]
Either way, the ad is still unprofessional by this region's standards.
Wonder what Treehopper will do my my next post below
mdvaden
Participating member
- Location
- Beaverton. Oregon
[ QUOTE ]
I just scrolled through the entire list of licenses within that link Mario. Tree service is not even listed as a service requiring a license. For someone who sat on the licensing board you sure seem to have your head up your a$$.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's see how "entire" the search was by Treehopper
When I listed the WA link, some folks may not want to dig into the information.
Here is what's beneath that page and links a layer or two ...
[ QUOTE ]
RCW 18.27.010
Definitions.
The definitions in this section apply throughout this chapter unless the context clearly requires otherwise.
(1) "Contractor" includes any person, firm, corporation, or other entity who or which, in the pursuit of an independent business undertakes to, or offers to undertake, or submits a bid to, construct, alter, repair, add to, subtract from, improve, develop, move, wreck, or demolish any building, highway, road, railroad, excavation or other structure, project, development, or improvement attached to real estate or to do any part thereof including the installation of carpeting or other floor covering, the erection of scaffolding or other structures or works in connection therewith, the installation or repair of roofing or siding, performing tree removal services, or ...
[/ QUOTE ]
The "offer" to undertake is where advertising falls, and some folks uneducated in business are unaware of this.
Some states may not have the abuse by contractors that caused the need for west coast licensing. One region may not be able to justify it's needs by what another region does.
I just scrolled through the entire list of licenses within that link Mario. Tree service is not even listed as a service requiring a license. For someone who sat on the licensing board you sure seem to have your head up your a$$.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's see how "entire" the search was by Treehopper
When I listed the WA link, some folks may not want to dig into the information.
Here is what's beneath that page and links a layer or two ...
[ QUOTE ]
RCW 18.27.010
Definitions.
The definitions in this section apply throughout this chapter unless the context clearly requires otherwise.
(1) "Contractor" includes any person, firm, corporation, or other entity who or which, in the pursuit of an independent business undertakes to, or offers to undertake, or submits a bid to, construct, alter, repair, add to, subtract from, improve, develop, move, wreck, or demolish any building, highway, road, railroad, excavation or other structure, project, development, or improvement attached to real estate or to do any part thereof including the installation of carpeting or other floor covering, the erection of scaffolding or other structures or works in connection therewith, the installation or repair of roofing or siding, performing tree removal services, or ...
[/ QUOTE ]
The "offer" to undertake is where advertising falls, and some folks uneducated in business are unaware of this.
Some states may not have the abuse by contractors that caused the need for west coast licensing. One region may not be able to justify it's needs by what another region does.
Crazy_Jimmy
Participating member
- Location
- Texas
Sometimes I want to throw my computer and stomp on it.This one of those times.Stupid thread im out.
Why the heck would you need to be bonded?
mdvaden
Participating member
- Location
- Beaverton. Oregon
If some companies are planting trees like arborists or landscapers, and other improvements, you tell me why they should not be bonded?
The designed purpose of the bond fits the need that insurance won't fill.
The designed purpose of the bond fits the need that insurance won't fill.
Depends on the company, I'd say.
By contract, I don't get paid until the work is done to the customers' satisfaction; therefore, a bond would be pointless (as in a performance or completion bond).
By contract, I don't get paid until the work is done to the customers' satisfaction; therefore, a bond would be pointless (as in a performance or completion bond).
mdvaden
Participating member
- Location
- Beaverton. Oregon
In Oregon, the license boards and homeowners tend not to want to play Russian Roulette with who may or may not need the bond. Especially since the companies where the bond pays out the first time, were the apparent reliable companies the week prior. But for all the companies that carry a bond, it's only a handful where it has to pay. But it sure helps when that happens. Sometimes its not enough though.
Glad we don't have all that here.
mdvaden
Participating member
- Location
- Beaverton. Oregon
[ QUOTE ]
Glad we don't have all that here.
[/ QUOTE ] Basically, it could all fall on the homeowner's shoulders for the responsibility. Could leave it up to them to insist upon insurance, certificates or bonds. They could also do any review of background. Anything they want they can ask for and pay for, and whatever they don't want, they can get, plus any potential consequences or benefits.
Glad we don't have all that here.
[/ QUOTE ] Basically, it could all fall on the homeowner's shoulders for the responsibility. Could leave it up to them to insist upon insurance, certificates or bonds. They could also do any review of background. Anything they want they can ask for and pay for, and whatever they don't want, they can get, plus any potential consequences or benefits.
Raven
Branched out member
- Location
- Northwoods
How do you know he's lowballing? Just because he has no overhead maybe he can chrge less overall while still enjoying a high profit margin. Is he taking work away from you? Competetive bidding against you? His clientele may be way different than yours - fixed income, first time home buyers, old hippie chicks. If he's not really hurting you then get off his a$$, if he is hurting you then go buy him a beer and offer him a job.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
Wiley,
I bet he is a good arborist with 7 years experience. I never disputed this. I'll even say he might be able to climb circles around me, have more disease knowledge, etc, etc.
I, as a legitimate business owner, have enough illegal competition (unlicensed, not properly insured, etc) from people in the area. This is logging country so this means a lot of people that want to jump into the industry, both with and without much knowledge, during our downturned economy. That's the breaks, right. When I started working in my area, I became the competition. I understand that it is a fact of life.
I, as a business owner, have to compete against legitimate companies that put workers in great jeopardy. When working for someone else in Olympia, I got to be the first/ only medically trained responder when an untrained worker cut the sh*T out of his hand using an MS 250 with one hand in a bucket--he got to keep his thumb. Another guy in Olympia got facial paralysis from a rolled truck, I heard a few years ago that in the recent past the crew drove off leaving the climber on the powerline when he was electricuted. Another company, from what I understand, had a climber go off the top of the spar due to no climbline, only a flipline. There are people that work against sensibility and OSHA/ etc.
(Truthfully, I'm not saying that I follow every rule and law to the "T" 100% of the time. I am the one at risk when I'm one-handing a saw, or make a cut on the ground without chaps, but I always make my ground crew wear chaps. I'm a bit of a Nazi about them wearing their eye protection and hard hats, Call and Respond, putting out cones, proper lifting techniques, warming up/ stretching, taping out work areas,etc.
I have reputable competition from a number of tree services, with and without CA owners or staff.
I am out there everyday in the trees and then on the ground, and have to do all the management.
Between the actual physical work on the jobs, administration, bids, maintenance, (and not counting all that I think about how to be a successful business owner) I probably work typically in the summer 60-90 hours a week. I've just finished two years in legitimate business for myself, without damage or injuries (aside from a minor back strain from an employee using poor lifting technique on a transplant).
------------------------------------------------------------
My problem is not anything to do with low quality work, there is plenty of that around here (as well as plenty of high quality work). Low quality work is what I can sell myself against, as I/we seem to have the reputation for high quality work.
Again, I've never doubted that he does good work. That's actually the problem. High quality work for sub-standard pricing, due to lack of:
insurance,
worker's comp insurance (paid through the state, necessitating license and bond),
ss,
B&O tax,
licensing fees,
bonding fees,
commercial auto insurance,
bookkeeping fees,
income tax,
etc.
Because he states that he is attending
Evergreen for a program, I get the idea that I am now supposed to compete for probably 1,2,3, or more years against a CA that is undercutting based on operating illegally.
Really it would be better if he charged full market value, rather than lowballing ("offering my services at an incredible discounted rate compared to what you would pay with a normal tree service company"), as this drives down market value. He would make the money he needs with less work, and less work that would be contracted to skilled/ competant tree workers would be taken.
He may be worth $5-600 per day, but in this economy I really can't afford to pay $50+/hour (an then all the additional expenses that go with payroll/ employees).
I would rather have a crew out on a weekend working, as there is more exposure to neighbors. I'm not sure if he states that he can't work for a regular company because that means weekends, or just that he needs to have a flexible schedule around school (I know a college load is hard to balance with work, as I worked really hard to graduate with my B.S.).
I really find it hard to believe that people can effectively offer all those services without the help of anyone else (employees).
The only thing that I have to wonder about in the ad is the wind-thinning. I thought this had been debunked by Ed Gilman, et. al., at least in the sense of clearing out the inner canopy, spiral pruning, branch removals (contrast end weight reduction on open grown trees).
Can you see my concern as a business owner, home owner (I have to pay my mortgage and property taxes), husband, etc.?
I bet he is a good arborist with 7 years experience. I never disputed this. I'll even say he might be able to climb circles around me, have more disease knowledge, etc, etc.
I, as a legitimate business owner, have enough illegal competition (unlicensed, not properly insured, etc) from people in the area. This is logging country so this means a lot of people that want to jump into the industry, both with and without much knowledge, during our downturned economy. That's the breaks, right. When I started working in my area, I became the competition. I understand that it is a fact of life.
I, as a business owner, have to compete against legitimate companies that put workers in great jeopardy. When working for someone else in Olympia, I got to be the first/ only medically trained responder when an untrained worker cut the sh*T out of his hand using an MS 250 with one hand in a bucket--he got to keep his thumb. Another guy in Olympia got facial paralysis from a rolled truck, I heard a few years ago that in the recent past the crew drove off leaving the climber on the powerline when he was electricuted. Another company, from what I understand, had a climber go off the top of the spar due to no climbline, only a flipline. There are people that work against sensibility and OSHA/ etc.
(Truthfully, I'm not saying that I follow every rule and law to the "T" 100% of the time. I am the one at risk when I'm one-handing a saw, or make a cut on the ground without chaps, but I always make my ground crew wear chaps. I'm a bit of a Nazi about them wearing their eye protection and hard hats, Call and Respond, putting out cones, proper lifting techniques, warming up/ stretching, taping out work areas,etc.
I have reputable competition from a number of tree services, with and without CA owners or staff.
I am out there everyday in the trees and then on the ground, and have to do all the management.
Between the actual physical work on the jobs, administration, bids, maintenance, (and not counting all that I think about how to be a successful business owner) I probably work typically in the summer 60-90 hours a week. I've just finished two years in legitimate business for myself, without damage or injuries (aside from a minor back strain from an employee using poor lifting technique on a transplant).
------------------------------------------------------------
My problem is not anything to do with low quality work, there is plenty of that around here (as well as plenty of high quality work). Low quality work is what I can sell myself against, as I/we seem to have the reputation for high quality work.
Again, I've never doubted that he does good work. That's actually the problem. High quality work for sub-standard pricing, due to lack of:
insurance,
worker's comp insurance (paid through the state, necessitating license and bond),
ss,
B&O tax,
licensing fees,
bonding fees,
commercial auto insurance,
bookkeeping fees,
income tax,
etc.
Because he states that he is attending
Evergreen for a program, I get the idea that I am now supposed to compete for probably 1,2,3, or more years against a CA that is undercutting based on operating illegally.
Really it would be better if he charged full market value, rather than lowballing ("offering my services at an incredible discounted rate compared to what you would pay with a normal tree service company"), as this drives down market value. He would make the money he needs with less work, and less work that would be contracted to skilled/ competant tree workers would be taken.
He may be worth $5-600 per day, but in this economy I really can't afford to pay $50+/hour (an then all the additional expenses that go with payroll/ employees).
I would rather have a crew out on a weekend working, as there is more exposure to neighbors. I'm not sure if he states that he can't work for a regular company because that means weekends, or just that he needs to have a flexible schedule around school (I know a college load is hard to balance with work, as I worked really hard to graduate with my B.S.).
I really find it hard to believe that people can effectively offer all those services without the help of anyone else (employees).
The only thing that I have to wonder about in the ad is the wind-thinning. I thought this had been debunked by Ed Gilman, et. al., at least in the sense of clearing out the inner canopy, spiral pruning, branch removals (contrast end weight reduction on open grown trees).
Can you see my concern as a business owner, home owner (I have to pay my mortgage and property taxes), husband, etc.?
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
[ QUOTE ]
You can't win this battle by fighting the lowballers, you're waaay outnumbered. you have to rise above them.
You don't want the kind of customers they attract anyway do you?
Educate your customers without dissing on anyone specific, they, in turn, will educate others. Win by being smarter, not cheaper or meaner.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't want the cheapest price for poor work customers.
I do want the customers that want a professional, skilled treeworker (CA or not).
I do try to educate customers on all of it. I agree with you.
You can't win this battle by fighting the lowballers, you're waaay outnumbered. you have to rise above them.
You don't want the kind of customers they attract anyway do you?
Educate your customers without dissing on anyone specific, they, in turn, will educate others. Win by being smarter, not cheaper or meaner.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't want the cheapest price for poor work customers.
I do want the customers that want a professional, skilled treeworker (CA or not).
I do try to educate customers on all of it. I agree with you.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
Tophopper,
Just so you know, regarding my post, regarding WA state, this IS ILLEGAL. This is why I stated in the very beginning of my original post that it it ILLEGAL.
I raised a question that is part hypothetical, part information seeking (I haven't had time to review the whole Code of Conduct, only gotten the idea that CAs are supposed to turn in CAs for topping, pruning with spikes, etc.)
Do you own a business? Do you have to worry about all these expenses, or do you just do the hard, dangerous, dirty work that we all seem to love, then collect a paycheck at a given hourly rate and get to leave it behind on the evening, weekend, middle of the night? Do you have to worry about making your mortgage payment?
Do you think that part of the ISA is to promote arboriculture as a profession and separate us from the drive-by-tree-guy?
A side job here and there is one thing, IMO, whereas setting up shop to offer full services to the entire market, illegally, is a different ball of wax (whether right or wrong, its reality, right?). Do you agree or disagree?
Should I start spiking prunes, working dangerously/ at a higher production rate, employee safety be damned, in the name of staying within the market. Should I send someone up in a tree with an inexperienced groundworker to run the ropes, endangering the climber, so that I can make a better margin?
What part of this increased danger would you like to be exposed to so that your boss (unless you are the boss) can stay in business against illegal competition?
Pardon me if I misunderstand that you are only addressing Mario with the P, V F'ing P, comment. Then, that would be between you and him.
Just so you know, regarding my post, regarding WA state, this IS ILLEGAL. This is why I stated in the very beginning of my original post that it it ILLEGAL.
I raised a question that is part hypothetical, part information seeking (I haven't had time to review the whole Code of Conduct, only gotten the idea that CAs are supposed to turn in CAs for topping, pruning with spikes, etc.)
Do you own a business? Do you have to worry about all these expenses, or do you just do the hard, dangerous, dirty work that we all seem to love, then collect a paycheck at a given hourly rate and get to leave it behind on the evening, weekend, middle of the night? Do you have to worry about making your mortgage payment?
Do you think that part of the ISA is to promote arboriculture as a profession and separate us from the drive-by-tree-guy?
A side job here and there is one thing, IMO, whereas setting up shop to offer full services to the entire market, illegally, is a different ball of wax (whether right or wrong, its reality, right?). Do you agree or disagree?
Should I start spiking prunes, working dangerously/ at a higher production rate, employee safety be damned, in the name of staying within the market. Should I send someone up in a tree with an inexperienced groundworker to run the ropes, endangering the climber, so that I can make a better margin?
What part of this increased danger would you like to be exposed to so that your boss (unless you are the boss) can stay in business against illegal competition?
Pardon me if I misunderstand that you are only addressing Mario with the P, V F'ing P, comment. Then, that would be between you and him.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
[ QUOTE ]
Sean back up your complaint re ethics and illegality.
dumb thread so far.
[/ QUOTE ]
Guy-
I think that some people have grabbed this thread and ran with it, in the wrong direction. A lot about whether or not it is illegal, moonlighting, etc.
I suspect that you see the illegality based on state law. The ethics of selling an oneself under a (rightfully attained, I suspect) professional accreditation, then offering to undercut everyone else by working illegally is the ethical part.
What say you to that?
Sean back up your complaint re ethics and illegality.
dumb thread so far.
[/ QUOTE ]
Guy-
I think that some people have grabbed this thread and ran with it, in the wrong direction. A lot about whether or not it is illegal, moonlighting, etc.
I suspect that you see the illegality based on state law. The ethics of selling an oneself under a (rightfully attained, I suspect) professional accreditation, then offering to undercut everyone else by working illegally is the ethical part.
What say you to that?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
[ QUOTE ]
[...]
Again, I've never doubted that he does good work. That's actually the problem. High quality work for sub-standard pricing, due to lack of:
insurance,
worker's comp insurance (paid through the state, necessitating license and bond),
ss,
B&O tax,
licensing fees,
bonding fees,
commercial auto insurance,
bookkeeping fees,
income tax,
etc.
Because he states that he is attending
Evergreen for a program, I get the idea that I am now supposed to compete for probably 1,2,3, or more years against a CA that is undercutting based on operating illegally.
[...]
Can you see my concern as a business owner, home owner (I have to pay my mortgage and property taxes), husband, etc.?
[/ QUOTE ]
So what exactly IS sub-standard pricing? Around here I've seen prices vary by 500%. When I get undercut I just tell the customer thanks for getting in touch. It's no big deal, go to the next stop. You can't make him stop seeking work... or if you can, it's not worth the energy because nine guys are gonna fill the spot before you turn around.
Good, bad or indifferent, this is a capitalist country where competition rules the market (unless you're a huge industry on government welfare). If that guy can get good results for less money, he's doing something right, not wrong.
You choose to run your business with all those expenses you mention... you have employees and that makes a BIG difference, both in terms of competitive advantage and cost disadvantage... but it's your choice. It's NOT the only way to do business. You pay all those fees mainly as a result of having a crew, he doesn't have a crew. Even if he doesn't have liability he's OK as long as he's up front about it.
Your time is better spent working your business than worrying about your competitors. Honestly, the guy isn't your competition anyway. He's posting on Craig's List, not publishing an ad in the phone book. Hopefully, after two years now, you're beyond that.
If he's putting himself through school doing side work, more power to him... that's a respectable way to do it.
[...]
Again, I've never doubted that he does good work. That's actually the problem. High quality work for sub-standard pricing, due to lack of:
insurance,
worker's comp insurance (paid through the state, necessitating license and bond),
ss,
B&O tax,
licensing fees,
bonding fees,
commercial auto insurance,
bookkeeping fees,
income tax,
etc.
Because he states that he is attending
Evergreen for a program, I get the idea that I am now supposed to compete for probably 1,2,3, or more years against a CA that is undercutting based on operating illegally.
[...]
Can you see my concern as a business owner, home owner (I have to pay my mortgage and property taxes), husband, etc.?
[/ QUOTE ]
So what exactly IS sub-standard pricing? Around here I've seen prices vary by 500%. When I get undercut I just tell the customer thanks for getting in touch. It's no big deal, go to the next stop. You can't make him stop seeking work... or if you can, it's not worth the energy because nine guys are gonna fill the spot before you turn around.
Good, bad or indifferent, this is a capitalist country where competition rules the market (unless you're a huge industry on government welfare). If that guy can get good results for less money, he's doing something right, not wrong.
You choose to run your business with all those expenses you mention... you have employees and that makes a BIG difference, both in terms of competitive advantage and cost disadvantage... but it's your choice. It's NOT the only way to do business. You pay all those fees mainly as a result of having a crew, he doesn't have a crew. Even if he doesn't have liability he's OK as long as he's up front about it.
Your time is better spent working your business than worrying about your competitors. Honestly, the guy isn't your competition anyway. He's posting on Craig's List, not publishing an ad in the phone book. Hopefully, after two years now, you're beyond that.
If he's putting himself through school doing side work, more power to him... that's a respectable way to do it.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who says this guy is illegal? He posts an ad on Craigslist and that means hes a scab? You all are pathetic.
[/ QUOTE ]
John, again I am reminded why I do not frequent this site. Amazing, some of you are real prizes. see yous at the House.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wiley,
A bunch of jumping to conclusions and name calling. Not good.
No real input on the original question of ethics, which was the original intent of the thread (or at least in part). Not good.
Seems like there was a lull in posting after all the name calling silliness over balanced point rigging and such. A shame to lose good input from professional over people calling each other a bunch of names and bickering back an forth. Started sounding like that other forum that doesn't really have many of its namesake.
[ QUOTE ]
Who says this guy is illegal? He posts an ad on Craigslist and that means hes a scab? You all are pathetic.
[/ QUOTE ]
John, again I am reminded why I do not frequent this site. Amazing, some of you are real prizes. see yous at the House.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wiley,
A bunch of jumping to conclusions and name calling. Not good.
No real input on the original question of ethics, which was the original intent of the thread (or at least in part). Not good.
Seems like there was a lull in posting after all the name calling silliness over balanced point rigging and such. A shame to lose good input from professional over people calling each other a bunch of names and bickering back an forth. Started sounding like that other forum that doesn't really have many of its namesake.
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