ISA and religion

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I really can't fathom why this little 4 minute prayer ( if it's that long ) offends so many, seeing as everywhere I have traveled ( extensively ) there is practically some type of church or churches placed within each community. Is it that truth has a way of getting even the most logical of thinkers a tad bit unraveled? ( just saying ). Seeing that I have had the privilege of being among many different cultures with numerous religions, I have become tolerant of each individual's belief system. [snip] If I was getting bent out of shape at the mere act of a prayer being said before functions I surely would have to dig deep into my heart ( conscience ) and ask WHY?

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Swingdude, you present a very sound and levelheaded point of view, but you describe a different culture from what I experience. There are undoubtedly a few members of many non-Christian faiths here, along with many of no faith, but Christians are an extremely dominant majority here. Most have the best of intentions--probably all think they do. The problem is, some Christians are so sure they are right, and that god has instructed them to convert the heathenous masses, that they have no problem coopting any and every public event to do so. If we had a Hindu prayer at one meeting and a Muslim prayer at another, with everyone accepting and tolerating the different opinions, it might be fine. But, here, 1.) I suspect many Christians would be outraged to hear a non-Christian prayer in "their" event and 2.) in America, the attitude is often, "if he gets to, then so do I." this would lead to delaying the start of activities until we hear a prayer from everyone. It makes much more sense to let people pray as they see fit amongst themselves while the official agenda sticks to the topic at hand--in this case, trees.

Regarding your last comment, I have attended over fifteen years' worth of TXISA events and have kept my mouth shut about the prayers (well, maybe I grumbled a bit here and there with friends). I don't think I am getting bent out of shape.

But now I am coming to realize that making waves is less bothersome than being excluded from events where I am a member in good standing. I also wonder how many people during my 15 years of keeping quiet came to an event wanting to become better arborists, but never returned because they were alienated by the Christian overtones. I reiterate, this is not just about me. I believe the organization (and the trees) is better served by keeping religion off the dais and away from the microphone.
 
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Does freedom of religion not boil down to freedom from religion being stuffed down someone's throat who has differing views and beliefs of whatever stripe?

I'm a Christian who can't find a church that doesn't sicken me in one way or another. So I read my Bible alone in a garden to find solace and tranquility with the birds singing happily as my church choir.

People speaking in absolute terms with no consideration or tolerance for folks with different views really bug me.

I applaud both Glenn's and the ISA's stance on observing a neutral and all inclusive point of view at ISA sanctioned events.

Indeed come one come all, providing you respect others' rights and beliefs, is the very best stance an international organisation whose goals are to benefit trees and the many people who care for them around the world, in my opinion.

jomoco

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Related to something else I wrote earlier, you still are getting religion stuffed at you a little bit at the ISA, as in the code of ethics thing. Hard to escape it, but it's hard to hide that fact in a box.

As far as finding a church, I'm somewhat in that same boat with you too.

It seems to be human tendency.

As far as events and meetings go, I don't feel the ISA needs to go out of it's way to incorporate religion. I think that most individuals can figure out how to take care of their own accommodation even if it means leaving a meeting for a few minutes to take care of some ritual.

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I also wonder how many people during my 15 years of keeping quiet came to an event wanting to become better arborists, but never returned because they were alienated by the Christian overtones. I reiterate, this is not just about me. I believe the organization (and the trees) is better served by keeping religion off the dais and away from the microphone.

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A few weeks ago, my wife and I were discussing something similar.

We were talking about that many zealous religious folks may influence others more, if they led by example and not with their mouth. In other words, if what they believe is genuinely a high road for prosperity, peace, boldness, confidence, etc., it should be evident without having to say much. Then naturally, people should be approaching them and asking, "how is it that you are" so (name it)?

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Don't get me wrong I enjoy this debate a lot. Nice to see everyone very civil and passionate but on reading responses I find that we are really going around in circles. I was raised to debate and discuss so I am quite glued to this thread however lets see if some new angles can enter the fray.
 
The ISA and I parted ways almost 20 years ago MD. But I still respect and even admire their hard work and dedication to advancing professionalism in the tree industry.

Love of money has corrupted far more important organisations than the ISA and TCIA my friend.

jomoco
 
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I also wonder how many people during my 15 years of keeping quiet came to an event wanting to become better arborists, but never returned because they were alienated by the Christian overtones. I reiterate, this is not just about me. I believe the organization (and the trees) is better served by keeping religion off the dais and away from the microphone.

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A few weeks ago, my wife and I were discussing something similar.

We were talking about that many zealous religious folks may influence others more, if they led by example and not with their mouth. In other words, if what they believe is genuinely a high road for prosperity, peace, boldness, confidence, etc., it should be evident without having to say much. Then naturally, people should be approaching them and asking, "how is it that you are" so (name it)?

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Now this is what I am talking about living and leading by example. This is the right attitude, most of the christian folks that I admire are humble and quite respectful of other's beliefs.
 
Mdvaden,

Your assumption that rules and ethics can only be derived from a christian world view of morality are small minded at best. Our current ethics and moralities are an amalgamation of our complete evolutionary history as a species. The christian moralities/ethics are just a small portion of this that are derived from our mammalian ancestors need to group together for survival.

That being said the ISA is an organization the represents the practice of a science and should exclude religious beliefs. With our ever increasing globalization we should stick to and all agree on this one thing. Science is a universal language. Religion is not.
 
Babberney I have to say bent out of shape was too strong ( my apology ) and I am really hearing your grievances and if you look above your last post you will see that I do agree with you. The ISA should keep it's agenda about trees and related topics, leaving religion out of it. That would keep the masses happy and concentrate on what is the chief mandate of the ISA, trees and their survival.
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"Your assumption that rules and ethics can only be derived from a christian world view of morality are small minded at best. Our current ethics and moralities are an amalgamation of our complete evolutionary history as a species. The christian moralities/ethics are just a small portion of this that are derived from our mammalian ancestors need to group together for survival".
A narrow vision......some nice word choices though.
Not trying to POKE you but you must understand that because you think this is rooted in "reason and science" and your view of truth...in and of itself does not MAKE it true, anymore than the Christains world view equates to truth ....for you!!! what we have here .....is a Quandry!!
 
I suppose this points to the fact that every organization—public, private, religious, governmental—is made up of people, all of them prone to biases and mistakes. If we want things to change, we have to speak up. And so I shall.
 
I agree with that....and please let me explain something...A body of believers (christain) is the same!! We are imperect,incomplete,flawed, prone to wander,the same as everyone else...When believers act legalistic and Preach in an offensive way about What YOU should or shouldnt do,and then we do it ...that is when we are labelled as hypocrates....The only reason we share our faith is out of love for those who do not know....not to be rude,judgemental,obnoxious ,or like know it alls....when we pray we are simply taking our petitions boldly before our GOd often times on behalf of others,,,,,Please do not make the mistake of thinking we think we are perfect!! a Person on his or her Walk of faith knows we are SO flawed....the more that Is revealed to us about the true Character of Christ the more flawed we see ourslves...WE are to walk humbly!!
Much LOVE to my brothers and especially those on here who think i am a believer in fairy tales!!! LOVE TOO YOU!! we simply disagree.
 
Personally. I don't care. They could pray to the devil himself and it wouldn't bother me. Whatever gets people through the day without killing one another either through religion, liquor or whatever. Who am I to piss in your Cheerios if you believe in god and I don't (not saying I do or don't here)

If you have the same morals, regardless of how or what got you there, we can be friends

Maybe

I mean. You still gotta be pretty awesome if you want to be my friend.

Being weird helps

Socially awkward is a must as well
 
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Now, if the majority of my chapter were Christian and the ISA leadership decided to pray for the safety of the men and women prior to a competition... what would be wrong with that? It would be well intended, wouldn't it?

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What if the majority of your group were Muslim? What if they pulled out prayer rugs and commenced chanting something about only one God, and that Jesus is not God? Would this religious ritual be relevant to arboriculture?

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Obviously it wouldn't be related to arboriculture.

However...I'd just sit and wait until their practices were finished. If I were voluntarily there...
 
To anyone ( Christians ) that may be interested in learning more about how to be Christian AND respectful/tolerant of others with different opinions/ beliefs, etc...

Go read anything by Donald Miller or Rob Bell.

And enough with the bumper stickers and lofty self righteous public prayer sessions. (You may like to hear yourself speak but some of us don't)

Grace and peace.
Matt
 
I love ice cream is that enough to gain a friend because I am neither weird nor awkward. Well maybe weird, because hey I am writing this shite.
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The world has truly passed me by if it's now acceptable to look your grandfather in the eye and complain how the trade association you belong to offends your sensibilities with it's lack of political correctness.

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Mario, Golly gee, I have not mistaken your use of bold type for a cogent and coherent argument. Since you've offered nothing in the form of a logical thought process to make your case, please continue riding off on that steed named Tangent in an effort to conceal your empty rhetoric.

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If we throw religion out the window all together, then codes of ethics, RIGHT & WRONG, and morals cease to exist.

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There seems to be no myth more widespread than the myth that moral values cannot be divorced from a belief in god (pick your god).

Was it always okay to lie before Moses hoofed it down Mt. Sinai with "Thou shalt not bear false witness" inscribed in Hebrew on a stone tablet; and always wrong to lie afterwards? This is the Euthyphro problem. In Plato's Euthyphro the central question that Socrates asks "Is something good because the gods will it, or do they will it because it is good?" Euthyphro replies that a thing (or action) is good because the gods will it. (And this has become known as the Divine Command Theory of Morality or the God is Boss Theory). Socrates argues the opposite, that a thing (or action) isn't good because the gods command it, but because it is intrinsically good. In other words, did God have any choice in making "Thou shalt not kill/murder" a commandment? Socrates would say no. Morality can be known by reason regardless of one's faith or lack of faith.

It is trivial to disprove naive notions that define a moral principle which admits of no exceptions. If the German State Police knocked on your door in 1940, the proper, moral response to the query of "Do any Jews live here?" would be an emphatic no, regardless of the truth of such an answer. Lying is clearly not always immoral.

But you are lying when you assert that the International Society of Arboriculture is a Christian organization, and in this case your lie is immoral.

I'm glad to see that Babberney, TreeCo, rangerdanger, treewill, marlinspiker, easyphloem, Tom D, jomoco, simplyarbor, Northwind, Treevolta, Frax, ryansenechal, treehumper, GibsonTreeCare, banjo, and others support the concept of discouraging official religious rituals at ISA meetings, and subsequently reject your attempts at religious bullying.

Be assured that if you take the podium at an ISA event that I attend and you attempt to conduct a religious ritual of any kind, I will, as politely as possible, interrupt you and object. I harbor no hard feelings towards you personally, but I strongly object to your position.
 
I have been reading this thread with some interest every couple of days. I never feel like I need to add anything because you, Glenn Butler, have made so much sense. What you have said has been clear and concise and you have kept a cool head. I have agreed with everything so far. That doesn't happen very often on a thread like this. Well done.
 
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