ISA and religion

The Ontario Chapter always has a Christian prayer before the banquet dinner at the annual meeting. I'm not really down with that, after all it's 2012 and I feel it's Very politicly incorrect and excludes other non Christian religions. For the same reason it's not allowed in schools either.
I walked out before the prayer.
 
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Who was it that lamented "If only you Christians were more like Jesus Christ?"

jomoco

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you mean this, from Gandhi? http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/1905

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Bingo! You nailed it Babberney!

Always admired and respected Gandhi, he was so humble and well, Christlike.

I'd be alot smarter if I could only remember everything I've read in my life. Unfortunately my recall abilities are pathetic!

Thanks for setting me straight mate!

jomoco
 
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The Ontario Chapter always has a Christian prayer before the banquet dinner at the annual meeting. I'm not really down with that, after all it's 2012 and I feel it's Very politicly incorrect and excludes other non Christian religions. For the same reason it's not allowed in schools either.
I walked out before the prayer.

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Really? In the Great White Frozen Northland? This disturbs me. I would not be cool with that either.
 
My thoughts on this are that the only sensible approach is to allow prayer. That would even go for public schools, where I think excluding prayer is dumb- stupid really.

If people have culture in their lives, which they obviously do, then it's senseless to try and force it out of people.

That's by view as a Christian person, and would probably be my view as a non-Christian.

But that does not mean I think that the prayer needs to be vocalized either, nor limited to just Christians.

Suppose there was a person who was mute, and could not speak. We would be foolish to say that such a person could not pray. Because if they can think in a language, they can pray in a language. Therefore they can pray silently and effectively in a language. And if they can do it, then anybody can do it.

And because of this, nobody really can stop prayer at a function, because they would never know if it was silently done. And I seriously doubt that God is going to frown on a genuine silent prayer of thankfulness. So because prayer cannot be stopped in that manner, that's why it's pointless to prevent it. At least completely.

It would more sense to encourage people to take a moment to pray if they like, in whatever fashion, silently.

Also, some people say that prayer, if spoken, makes them feel uncomfortable. Well, I'm certain many of those people speak things in their normal conversation that could be pretty awkward to others too.

I see two problems with situations like this.

1. The non-religious or anti-religious foolishly hoping to sterilize cultures from day to day living.

2. Christians or other religious people acting in a mechanical legalistic fashion as if they must do the same thing, the same way, every time, without adapting or modifying their actions.

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2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects..
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions

These are a couple of definitions from dictionary.com..ISA is religion, we believe in fundamentals of tree pruning, care, etc. We are a body of people believing in the work we perform. Why compound things..

I may be religious, however, I feel that should remain individually as we are not all collectively of one belief outside of the ISA/ tree world. I may be Mormon and only know of a few in the area of similar belief. Would I stop being an Arborist if prayers were not a part of ISA events, NO. Would I stop being an Arborist if they were part of ISA events, NO. I am in the bible belt and only here prayers on ocassion, very driven on the ones organizing the events. One aspect of being a Christian is being able to respect and be tolerant of others views and beliefs. That's all I have, back to climbing and enjoying trees.
 
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I think it sucks to have to sit through religious blabbering.....of any kind.

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You run into that at school, in the work place listening to people just talk about their golf, their chainsaws, their photography, etc.. That too can be religious blabbering of it's own kind ...

Actually, I think some folks might find some amusement to learn about the word "CHURCH" in the bible. It's translated from a Greek word Ekklesia, and literally means called out for a purpose, as in the same purpose. It was also translated "assembly" referring to a mob in the book of Acts, and was used in other secular writings of the past.

Ekklesia is not a Christian word or a religious word. It was merely a language word. A Greek one, in common use.

So technically, and accurately, a stadium full of Denver Bronco fans, or Portland Trailblazer fans, is a church - an ekklesia.

A meeting of ISA folks, all called out for a single purpose, even if they do not pray, but just talk about trees, are an EKKLESIA, a church.

It's that simple and that factual. Just most people religious or non-religious have not studied that enough to not be ignorant about what an Ekklesia is referring to.

Contestants at a PGA golf tournament are an Ekklesia, or a church.

A group of recreational tree climbers are an Ekklesia or a church.

Even a group of aetheist political protesters are an Ekklesia or a church.

If they are all called out or gathered for a similar purpose, that's exactly what the Greek word is referring to.

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I am really liking this thread. I have in my 44 years always wondered why religion has been such a controversial topic. I see here on tree buzz it's no different. The only other topic that rivals religion is politics. That being said I really can't fathom why this little 4 minute prayer ( if it's that long ) offends so many, seeing as everywhere I have traveled ( extensively ) there is practically some type of church or churches placed within each community. Is it that truth has a way of getting even the most logical of thinkers a tad bit unraveled? ( just saying ). Seeing that I have had the privilege of being among many different cultures with numerous religions, I have become tolerant of each individual's belief system. I have made friends without even considering our differences, only knowing of our what we do have in common. If I was getting bent out of shape at the mere act of a prayer being said before functions I surely would have to dig deep into my heart ( conscience ) and ask WHY? The key word that pops up every time something bothers me is TOLERANCE and believe me this can happen frequently as I am NOWHERE NEAR PERFECT. Again just a little $.02. Something to ponder.
 
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haha, another lesson from the rabbi.

(It means teacher.)

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On an entirely different subject - lol

In the movie STAR TREK, Spock's mother dies when the planet Vulcan is destroyed, while he is still fairly young.

Previously, in the series, Spock's mother was alive when he was older, as first officer to Capt. Kirk.

Anybody catch that difference between the TV series and big screen version?


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Having lived through school-wide participation in the Lord's Prayer in elementary, I disagree with your argument entirely Mario. If you want to organize a posse to pray, go for it. Try and sanction it and I will resist.
 
I read all the posts in this thread and understand both point of views. Christians have in their eyes a legitimate reason for wanting prayer and non-Christians have good reason for not wanting it. Why not compromise? I remember when I was in kindergarten up to about the 5th grade prayer was in my school. Most of my teachers every morning would lead the class in prayer. I didnt necessarily agree with it then as I had friends that were Wiccan, Hindu and Muslim. Then the school adopted a great policy. A moment of silence. You could pray if you wanted or take a moment to clear your head meditate if you wanted whatever. I liked this and thought it was one of the best ways to please everyone and not alienate certain religions or individuals.
 
Well Del after reading this thread, I gotta say it sucks just as bad sitting through atheistic blathering as any other kind. But here we are.

Mario I'm not sure it's dumb/stupid to exclude denominational prayer from school. I remember having to say the Pledge of Allegiance in 4th grade, and zipping my lip with resentment at the "under God" part. Still bothers me that zealots inserted that phrase, co-opting the Founders' legacy, representing their Deism as something much narrower.
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Moments of silence are excellent practice. Brings people together. White Tantric sessions at Sikh solstice celebrations call for 3 days of silence, except for chanting. Talk about clearing your head; it works! Red Tantric is another great religious practice, but it's X-rated so...

"ISA is religion, we believe in fundamentals of tree pruning, care, etc. We are a body of people believing in the work we perform. Why compound things?"

Maybe because things should not be oversimplified? If we look at the fundamentals of tree pruning, are our beliefs the same? Many folks take that to mean collar cuts at the origin and the 1/3 Rule for reduction. That was tossed out of the A300 Bible 10 years ago, but dogmatically adheres.

The saddest thing here is avowed atheists who think themselves above religion because they are too rational and scientific to have faith that deep, then cling to outdated dogma in their daily practice. Rationalists avoiding reasoning, yeah, that makes sense!
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Some wonderful tangents here. But at the heart of the issue is, an organization whose mandate is not religious in the conventional manner incorporating a singular Christian prayer as part of ceremonial practice. It's not something done in silence or as an individual's act which is where the problem arises. Leading the meeting in a moment of silence to gather was thoughts and focus on a fruitful outcome to the day's events would, IMHO, suffice.
 
Organized religion is a farce.

People's individual beliefs are sacred to them and they should be allowed to believe what they want.

Does it have a place here?

no.

in your house or a park or a church?

yes.


as part of an event where you may have pagans, catholics, druids, born-again-bible bangers, atheists, muslims, scientologists, etc....

no way, no in any way, shape or form.

events are for the love and good of the trees, the climbers, the people involved, and that is all that it should entail. :)
 
"People's individual beliefs are sacred to them and they should be allowed to believe what they want."

I believe there is only good that can come from acknowledging God, and asking for His blessing with a prayer, whether silent or aloud, before any endeavor.

I believe each tree is a witness to its Maker, and is perhaps the best kind of sermon.
 
Everyone can go back and forth about what's offensive and what's politically correct etc, as I can see here is no different, anytime God is mentioned the debate always goes nowhere. Really sad indeed. However, unfortunately I know that the truth will come to light and all previous arguments ( long forgotten ) would just be a faded memory if so much. I don't know the solution to this prayer/ISA debate however it seems from the postings that personal agendas really are the reason a debate is even going on.
 
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"People's individual beliefs are sacred to them and they should be allowed to believe what they want."

I believe there is only good that can come from acknowledging God, and asking for His blessing with a prayer, whether silent or aloud, before any endeavor.

I believe each tree is a witness to its Maker, and is perhaps the best kind of sermon.

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There's a thread for you down in the Tree Free Zone.
We have two kinds of freedom in this country, freedom to and freedom from. You all are free to worship whatever you want but you have to respect others freedom from it. Up here in New England you'd probably get laughed out of the room for trying to lead a prayer circle before an event.
 
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