ISA and religion

Re: ISA and Christian / Jewish Weekends

your kinda grasping at straws here mdvaden, sorry.
great dialogue (especially Glenn), I have enjoyed reading this thread and the fairly calm manner it has progressed.
The praying in the throwline event was classic
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Re: ISA and Christian / Jewish Weekends

Virtually every restaurant and retail establishment in this country is now open on the weekend. Does this mean TGIFridays is not Christian, despite having G in its name?

Most other businesses close for Labor Day. Does this make them union companies? Does closing for Memorial Day make my bank a military institution?

Christmas itself was originally a pagan ritual. Times change. Traditions change. The reasons why we may or may not have chosen Saturday and Sunday to be our weekend are not relevant. The reality is, some of us use our time off to go to temple, some to go to church, and some to go to the park. Our founding fathers, some of whom were Christian, possibly did not know any Muslims, Hindus, or atheists, yet they saw wisdom in creating a government that preserved every person's right to worship without interference from the state. Why can't you see the wisdom in applying this strategy to the ISA? What does our organization gain from promoting one religion over another? What do the trees gain?
 
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It seems that you have not really studied the reason people came to this continent in the first place [/b]


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Mario,

have look at this video explaining how Christianity borrowed it's ideas from every other religion/myth, to understand Christian teaching you have to understand it's central premise lies in the ancient pagan religions.

Anyone whose interested in the roots of Christianity may also find this interesting - particularly the story of the Egyptian 'Horus' (2.00 mins in) who was basically a blueprint for Jesus Christ despite being born 3000 years before Christ. If you watch nothing else of this video watch the very short timeline of Horus' life from the 3.00 min mark -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-17BNU7L6g&feature=related



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Re: ISA and Christian / Jewish Weekends

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Virtually every restaurant and retail establishment in this country is now open on the weekend. Does this mean TGIFridays is not Christian, despite having G in its name?

Most other businesses close for Labor Day. Does this make them union companies? Does closing for Memorial Day make my bank a military institution?

Christmas itself was originally a pagan ritual.

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Your reply is along the lines I was thinking of.

Some businesses are open on weekends. Although, even though they work on weekends, they still refer to a weekend.

In that, we see that some businesses are not glued to taking what was a worship day off, but have had their terminology molded indefinitely by it.

I think Fridays were for Muslims in some places once upon a time.

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It seems that you have not really studied the reason people came to this continent in the first place [/b]


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Mario,

have look at this video explaining how Christianity borrowed it's ideas from every other religion/myth, to understand Christian teaching you have to understand it's central premise lies in the ancient pagan religions.


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I'm aware of most of what you wrote. There are some pagan influences among certain Christian circles. But some Christians, have omitted many pagan ideas from their faith. So what you wrote is not that relevant to my reply. Although it can be in any Christians interest to realize what is scripturally factual, versus things they say that may be merely ritualistic, borrowed from pagans, or others.

Getting back to my point, I was referring mostly to the people coming to this continent at the time they came here, and from that time to the present.

Actually, christians are not an exclusive club when it come to being influenced by pagans. I'd imagine a tattoo parlor could be one place to see a little bit of that.

Technically, even the name "Christian" would have been an incorporation from others, although not necessarily pagans. But Christians did not name themselves. It was a slang term first assigned to them by others in a derogatory fashion, the same way that "wet back" might be used to a Mexican. The slang stemmed from "Christ" + "in" and morphed into the expression meant disrespectfully. The scripture in the new testament refers to that first occurance. Later on, Christians just started commonly using the title for themselves.

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I'm aware of most of what you wrote. There are some pagan influences among certain Christian circles. But some Christians, have omitted many pagan ideas from their faith. So what you wrote is not that relevant to my reply. Although it can be in any Christians interest to realize what is scripturally factual, versus things they say that may be merely ritualistic, borrowed from pagans, or others.



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MDV, the point you are missing and that the video makes pretty clear......is that all of these myths were created by men, including yours.
 
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Well there ya go. I guess a youtube video trumps 2,000 years of history and tradition as well as a billion+ believers.

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Yeah, well Copernicus and Galileo trumped thousands of years of mistaken beliefs, paid a high price for it at the hands of the church, but were proven right nevertheless.

jomoco
 
Cool discussion thread.

I can't speak for the EN ZED chapter - because even though I am a member I have no idea what the religeous views of my fellow members are. Nor my work mates, or anyone else I interact with. Religion in NZ is something some people do on a sunday morning when the rest of us are sleeping in or mowing the lawn.

What I do find odd about going to ISA events in the States is ...

1. All the flags (the NZ flag industry is virtually non existant - and I cant think when I last saw one flying). It was quite a surprise to see a quasi-marine colour gaurd march your flags into the conference kick off at Saint Louis for instance. (Can you hire a colour guard?) More of a surprise was the singing of your National Anthem. I did wonder how long it would take to get to my National Anthem - and if they would be sung in alphabetical order - or order of joining the ISA, but they didn't continue on from the Star Spangled Banner, maybe there was a time constraint.

2. The chanting and group hugs at each event is odd. We don't have that here - we're not a group hug, group chant kind of people.

3. The huge number of people involved in running an event - and that the numbers involved appear to make no difference to how smoothly it is run - or the time it takes to set up.

4. The prayers didn't surprise me - infact I think I was expecting more of them. I'm not too worried about prayers. It gives you a chance to figure out who the other heathens are in the room: arms folded, head up, pained expression on their faces - that sort of thing.

Personally don't care if the ISA has a religion policy, although I would think the only workable policy would be to be secular. What I think the ISA should note is that there are a fair number of cultural things that Americans take for granted that the rest of us find a tad odd - like indepth discussions on the appropriateness of religion in organisations for instance; (or indeed the presence of religion in what I would regard as simple everyday endevour).
 
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MDV, the point you are missing and that the video makes pretty clear......is that all of these myths were created by men, including yours.

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The point you are missing, is that I don't believe a lot of stuff other Christians do. The point you are still missing, is that's an entirely different thread from what I was clarifying the other day.

And for much I or others believe in, you couldn't prove it wrong anyway.

Now one myth I put away, that I used to believe in, was painting all pruning cuts for better tree health. Guess you might know a few folks who believed in that pagan kind of mythology.

Now one area I do believe in scripturally, are the 200 + figures of speech utilized, and that they appear to be used accurately. How many of those 200 have you studied, and which ones do you think were used accurately or innacurately?

In regards to the earlier video ...

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You believe in Horus?

Just curious, because you posted a video about a mythological character to prop up some kind of argument.

In the realm of reality, the scripture does not have written anything about Jesus' birthdate. Not all Christians believe in the Dec. 25th birthday, so December 25th is not exactly a cut-and-dried matter of faith.

So I find it amusing for you to apparently argue about matters of faith, utilizing a myth.

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Tara2,

Welcome to Tree Buzz and thanks for your input. It's nice to get perspectives from outside the U.S.

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What I think the ISA should note is that there are a fair number of cultural things that Americans take for granted that the rest of us find a tad odd - like indepth discussions on the appropriateness of religion in organisations for instance; (or indeed the presence of religion in what I would regard as simple everyday endevour).

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In the U.S., religiosity varies greatly across the country. Non-Christians and liberal Christians here in the States wouldn't need to have in depth discussions on the separation of church and (insert your choice of activity) if it weren't for the religious bullies who persist in force feeding their views on the rest of the us. Fortunately they're a minority, but a very vocal obnoxious minority.
 
mdvaden,

Yes things are done wrong in the name of science but it provides a framework for evolution to change ideas as new evidence is brought to light. If the ISA were religion we would probably still be painting tree wounds. Science is not faith based. Science is based on the collective evidence as presented by the real world.
 
Grover,

I wish we wouldn't get sidetracked and could stay on the issue Babberney initially raised. However I understand why you might find that video interesting. The video has some serious and fundamental problems. The idea that Christianity started out as an astrotheological religion is not taken seriously by real historical scholars (Christian and non-Christian alike). What the video producers need are citations from primary ancient sources to verify their assertions. Plainly put, I don't think they can back up their claims.

If you're genuinely interested in a historical approach to Jesus (as opposed to a theological approach), I would recommend searching for publications from serious New Testament scholars. Bart Ehrman's Teaching Company Course The Historical Jesus, would be a great start. I think it's only $70 or so when it's on sale.

I hope you find that information helpful.
 
Mario,

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Much of science is still a matter of faith.

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No it isn’t. The methods of Western science get results. Repeatable, testable, experimentally observable results. Western science allows us to place rovers on Mars, to see billions of light years from Earth, to criss-cross the planet in aircraft, and to defeat micro organisms that create human illness. We can do these things because many Western scientifically trained medical researchers and engineers have a real grasp of physics, chemistry, biology and math. No one needs “faith” in practices that have been scientifically demonstrated. (I copied and adapted this from one of my previous comments on another thread.)


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Just take for example how whether we have 8 planets or 9 planets in our solar system was put to a vote. Actually, wasn't it accepted "science" that painting tree wounds was the way to go for tree care several decades ago? So much for accurate common communication - lol

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Your statement reveals that you have a poor or perhaps negligible understanding of how science works. Science is cumulative and self-correcting. This scientific ability to admit previous errors and mistakes is the very strength of the process. Can you provide a citation for the scientific paper(s) that expound on the efficacy of painting tree wounds? Have you read a scientific paper supporting wound painting? I’m not saying they don’t exist, I’ve just never read one.
 
Hey Glenn, if you haven't read it yet, "Lost Christianities" by Bart Ehrman is a very interesting and informative read.

jomoco
 
Jomoco, yes, that's a great recommendation for a better understanding of early Christianity. The Ebionites, the Marcionites, the various Gnostics, the proto-orthodox battling it out for who would become the orthodox Christians and who would lose and become the heretics. Whether readers agree or disagree with Bart Ehrman's scholarship, everyone should thank him for making important New Testament scholarship accessible to the general public.
 
I wish the ISA was far more like Bart Ehrman in some ways.

You see Ehrman is not averse to putting his work out online to gain the widest possible dispersion of important work done by him. It's the work itself getting out to as many people as possible that is his primary goal, not making big bucks doing it.

To prove that, he's made Lost Christianities available for free online to anyone who wants to read it.

http://sheekh-3arb.org/library/books/christian/en/The-Lost-Christianities.pdf

That kinda dedication to your work rather than your wallet's thickness is an admirable trait that I wish the ISA would emulate.

jomoco
 
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