ISA and religion

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haha, another lesson from the rabbi.

(It means teacher.)

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On an entirely different subject - lol

In the movie STAR TREK, Spock's mother dies when the planet Vulcan is destroyed, while he is still fairly young.

Previously, in the series, Spock's mother was alive when he was older, as first officer to Capt. Kirk.

Anybody catch that difference between the TV series and big screen version?


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Odd things can happen when you travel around the universe at ludicrous speed.
 
Apologies to those who have waded through this entire thread and are wasting their time seeing the same comments repeated ad nauseum, but I think it’s important to respond to mdvaden’s baseless assertions.

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My thoughts on this are that the only sensible approach is to allow prayer. That would even go for public schools, where I think excluding prayer is dumb- stupid really.

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1. This is a discussion about the ISA and prayer, not U.S. public school and prayer.

2. Prayer is not excluded in U.S. public school, so your assertion is wrong, prima facie. Students may pray in any fashion they like as long as they don’t disrupt normal classroom activity.

3. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution forbids teachers and officials from using any government platform to advance any particular religious views. The Supreme Court of the United States has repeatedly ruled in favor of the Establishment Clause. Teacher-led prayer is illegal in U.S. public school.

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Suppose there was a person who was mute, and could not speak. We would be foolish to say that such a person could not pray. Because if they can think in a language, they can pray in a language. Therefore they can pray silently and effectively in a language. And if they can do it, then anybody can do it.

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You’re attacking an argument that no one here has advocated. No one on this thread has suggested that individuals refrain from personal prayer at ISA meetings.


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Also, some people say that prayer, if spoken, makes them feel uncomfortable.

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No one on this thread has made that claim. What they have said is that prayer spoken by someone in an official ISA capacity bothers them, as it should bother us all, religious or not. My question is, is it difficult to discern the difference in official prayers and personal prayers?


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The non-religious or anti-religious foolishly hoping to sterilize cultures from day to day living.

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Many members want to focus strictly on arboriculture at meetings. The A300 Standards don’t mention anything about praying to a specific deity or performing a specific ritual because such activity is not relevant to proper tree care. I think ISA members have little concern about what you or I do in our day to day living.


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Christians or other religious people acting in a mechanical legalistic fashion as if they must do the same thing, the same way, every time, without adapting or modifying their actions.

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This is nonsense. You are attempting to broaden an otherwise narrow argument. Then you attempt to knock down this broader argument, one that doesn’t exist on this thread, one which has not been made.


Surveyor,

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I believe there is only good that can come from acknowledging God, and asking for His blessing with a prayer, whether silent or aloud, before any endeavor.

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Pray however you like to any God you choose, just refrain from doing so while acting in an official capacity at an ISA meeting. Many of your fellow members (assuming you’re a member) do not share your religious views nor are they interested in those views. They pay membership dues for the purpose of promulgating arboriculture.
 
Although I will make it known that the prayers would not bother me either way ( whether there is a prayer or not ). ISA is about trees so it mighty be better to leave the religion out as it makes things difficult for some plain and simple. Keep it about the trees and not muddle things up including religion. It's just too touchy a topic and it would not help when it just alienates others. A religion is about CHOICE and this is the most important criteria, it should never be forced that only turns folks off.
 
I never would have thought that there would be prayer at any ISA gathering. Now that I think about it, I've never been to an ISA gathering in the "Bible Belt". So, that is understanding to me...

As most veterans here on T.B. would know, I'm a Christian. I'm indifferent on the subject of this thread. But, I think I have some reasoning worth communicating.

And as a Christian, I'm also on the other side of the fence. Would I dare to be offended if prayer wasn't offered in my ISA Rocky Mountain Chapter? Absolutely not. I wouldn't put that expectation on anyone here.

The reason I wouldn't be offended if prayer wasn't offered (because it isn't) a majority of my chapter members are aethiest, Buddist, Hindu, post-modernest, etc... I don't care. I'm there to talk tree related stuff. Therefore, I'm not offended that prayer isn't offered.

Now, if the majority of my chapter were Christian and the ISA leadership decided to pray for the safety of the men and women prior to a competition... what would be wrong with that? It would be well intended, wouldn't it?
 
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Now, if the majority of my chapter were Christian and the ISA leadership decided to pray for the safety of the men and women prior to a competition... what would be wrong with that? It would be well intended, wouldn't it?

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Fifty one out of a hundred is a majority, what about the other forty nine?
 
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Now, if the majority of my chapter were Christian and the ISA leadership decided to pray for the safety of the men and women prior to a competition... what would be wrong with that? It would be well intended, wouldn't it?

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Fifty one out of a hundred is a majority, what about the other forty nine?

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I'll give you my answer, if you give yours first.
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Now, if the majority of my chapter were Christian and the ISA leadership decided to pray for the safety of the men and women prior to a competition... what would be wrong with that? It would be well intended, wouldn't it?

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What if the majority of your group were Muslim? What if they pulled out prayer rugs and commenced chanting something about only one God, and that Jesus is not God? Would this religious ritual be relevant to arboriculture?
 
That is why here on tree buzz I keep my faith out the mix. I am a part of this community to meet other people who share the passion about trees and tree work. The last thing I want to do is offend another because of my faith. It might prevent me from creating a friendship with a really nice dude or gal of a different faith which would be very shallow. I believe totally in tolerance of others and their beliefs, however different they are from mine. The majority of people I interact with do not share my faith and I surely don't want to alienate them by shoving it down their throats, I respect them too much for that.
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Having lived through school-wide participation in the Lord's Prayer in elementary, I disagree with your argument entirely Mario. If you want to organize a posse to pray, go for it. Try and sanction it and I will resist.

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If people prayed silently, you would never even know it. They could be calculating math in their heads for all you know.

That's how absurd that disagreement is.

In other words, it's absurd, because it's virtually impossible to disagree with what people are thinking silently.

Selecting the word "posse" to apply to the concept of merely allowing people to think silently, puts your argument on the opposite corner of the "Jesus Freak" who's screaming from the corner downtown. Both are extreme.

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Apologies to those who have waded through this entire thread and are wasting their time seeing the same comments repeated ad nauseum, but I think it’s important to respond to mdvaden’s baseless assertions.

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My thoughts on this are that the only sensible approach is to allow prayer. That would even go for public schools, where I think excluding prayer is dumb- stupid really.

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1. This is a discussion about the ISA and prayer, not U.S. public school and prayer.

2. Prayer is not excluded in U.S. public school, so your assertion is wrong, prima facie. Students may pray in any fashion they like as long as they don’t disrupt normal classroom activity.

3. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution forbids teachers and officials from using any government platform to advance any particular religious views. The Supreme Court of the United States has repeatedly ruled in favor of the Establishment Clause. Teacher-led prayer is illegal in U.S. public school.


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Time to wake up from trying apply the nit-picky letter of the law to justify promoting sterile behavior. Keep in mind that the laws and constitution, teachers and officials, can't prevent people from thinking and speaking silently.

And giving people the freedom to think, does not mean that's leading them.

Just like the freedom to carry a firearm concealed down the street does not mean the Sheriff and the Mayor are "leading" the movement (Ekklesia) of the Concealed-Carry.

RE ... APOLOGIES ...

There is nothing anybody has written that needs apologizing for. Feel free to apologize for yourself.

It also does not matter if the topic was in relation to ISA. Because lots of matters in our country are sorted by comparing to other situations. Regarding "personal" prayer you commented about, that too is relevant, because it's related as an alternative.

If alternatives work in business and most other aspects, I see no need for people to avoid discussing them just because you want the conversation to neatly fit inside a little box.

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When you finally wake up from trying apply the nit-picky letter of the law to justify foolish sterile behavior, keep n mind that the laws and constitution, teachers and officials, can't prevent people from thinking and speaking silently.

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Call the destruction of your argument whatever you like. Your assertions on this thread are baseless. Why do you insist on droning on and on about silent thinking? No one on this thread is suggesting that we try to prevent personal religious thoughts or actions. If I'm mistaken about this, please provide quotations.


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If you are going to apologize, apologize for your own post.

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I'm apologizing for having to refute the same irrational assertions over and over. Apparently you made your initial comment without reading the entire thread.
 
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That is why here on tree buzz I keep my faith out the mix. I am a part of this community to meet other people who share the passion about trees and tree work. The last thing I want to do is offend another because of my faith.

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Did the person, characters, or personalities, who are icons (the epitomy) of your faith, offend others because of what they believed in?

And whether they did or did not, that introduces where they did or did not.

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When you finally wake up from trying apply the nit-picky letter of the law to justify foolish sterile behavior, keep n mind that the laws and constitution, teachers and officials, can't prevent people from thinking and speaking silently.

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Call the destruction of your argument whatever you like. Your assertions on this thread are baseless. Why do you insist on droning on and on about silent thinking? No one on this thread is suggesting that we try to prevent personal religious thoughts or actions. If I'm mistaken about this, please provide quotations.


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If you are going to apologize, apologize for your own post.

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I'm apologizing for having to refute the same irrational assertions over and over. Apparently you made your initial comment without reading the entire thread.

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I read it completely.

Even parts more than once.

And exactly why I wrote what I did. Reiterations are fine in trees, and I have no problem with reiterations in the forum.

This is not a book or article going to publication, nor a thesis needing a word count tool.

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When you finally wake up from trying apply the nit-picky letter of the law to justify foolish sterile behavior, keep n mind that the laws and constitution, teachers and officials, can't prevent people from thinking and speaking silently.

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Call the destruction of your argument whatever you like. Your assertions on this thread are baseless. Why do you insist on droning on and on about silent thinking? No one on this thread is suggesting that we try to prevent personal religious thoughts or actions. If I'm mistaken about this, please provide quotations.


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If you are going to apologize, apologize for your own post.

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I'm apologizing for having to refute the same irrational assertions over and over. Apparently you made your initial comment without reading the entire thread.

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Over and over again. Glenn is showing his thought process to be based in the reality of this thread, not tangents of supposed persecution, exclusionary fears, and assertions of the right to think something without verbally expressing that thought.

Is the ISA a Christian organization? No.

Is that a problem? No.

Is this discussion going nowhere fast? Yes.


I love answering my own questions.

SZ
 
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Over and over again. Glenn is showing his thought process to be based in the reality of this thread, not tangents of supposed persecution, exclusionary fears, and assertions of the right to think something without verbally expressing that thought.

Is the ISA a Christian organization? No.

Is that a problem? No.

Is this discussion going nowhere fast? Yes.


I love answering my own questions.

SZ

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Glenn has not shown Diddley - Because the ISA is a Christian Organization

Will edit to explain in moment ...

Continued ...

ISA is a Christian Organization ??

It's not just the ISA, but most government offices, and many other organizations, are expected to function in a way that is clean from lying, stealing, cheating, etc..

If we throw religion out the window all together, then codes of ethics, RIGHT & WRONG, and morals cease to exist.

So if people would be honest about it, it's obvious that the "culture" that the ISA is expected to function with, is in a way, a black-ops God-fearing mentality.

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It's the usual thing whenever religion is mentioned in a sentence. Chaos. Very unfortunate indeed. Maybe talking about trees and tree work might be a better thread.
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Does freedom of religion not boil down to freedom from religion being stuffed down someone's throat who has differing views and beliefs of whatever stripe?

I'm a Christian who can't find a church that doesn't sicken me in one way or another. So I read my Bible alone in a garden to find solace and tranquility with the birds singing happily as my church choir.

People speaking in absolute terms with no consideration or tolerance for folks with different views really bug me.

I applaud both Glenn's and the ISA's stance on observing a neutral and all inclusive point of view at ISA sanctioned events.

Indeed come one come all, providing you respect others' rights and beliefs, is the very best stance an international organisation whose goals are to benefit trees and the many people who care for them around the world, in my opinion.

jomoco
 
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Thread seems to be going nowhere FAST. That's right.

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This thread could go on for a month and some would still find it interesting.

If you lack the endurance to participate, there are other topics.

I think jomoco's post following yours, was the first step to show there is room for 100 more replies, whether new content or reiteration.

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