Fu*%face Von Clownstick

If you want to live in a democracy you should be participating in the democratic process.

Australia does it right. They make it easy and enjoyable, while the penalty isn't a financial burden of you don't turn out.
My participation alone isn't gonna make it a democracy. What does Australia do that makes it enjoyable? that sounds cool.

I also agree that it shouldn't be a financial punishment if you don't participate. I don't remember anything about that in the discussion thusfar.
 
I just noticed something! Recall how Trump & Friends constantly made a big deal out of Biden's age and approaching senility? Well, surprise, Trump is actually now himself the oldest person to ever be elected president. That's right, he is older than Biden was when Biden was elected. And he is already showing signs of cognitive decline, rambling, making mistakes in speeches. So, cool, we get to watch this get worse for four years as constant media attention, scrutiny, and pressure is focused on him as president. At least we have this small thing to look forward to, embarrassing as this will be in front of the World, and amid the perhaps irreversible damage he may do to the environment, the economy, womens' reproductive rights, our health care and insurance infrastructure, etc.
 
See guys, this is an idea in the right direction! Would that work to increase people's refund if eligble? That notion alone would drive every low income person to the polls! Next time, I may swing from Oceans to Ev
Just a reflection and massive spin off the illegal nature of incentivized voting. If its the feds that spread incentive universally it would be clean.
 
So, they do in fact have mandatory voting in Australia, and have for 100 years now. I would encourage all to read that article from Harvard. It paints a pretty sweet sounding picture with sausages and stuff.
By definitely, that's actually exactly what it does.

I find many Americans have an individualistic or selfish view of the world. It's about what benefits me rather than what benefits the most. I think it's a cultural thing.
I agree that more Americans than not have a selfish view of the world. Can I ask you to expound on how my one vote makes the whole of democracy function, because it still feels to me like without everyone's participation, it is not a fully democratic process. I get the impression that ypu have some good ideas, but I am not seeing the big picture yet. Thank you in advance.
 
Your vote makes democracy function in exactly the same way the other 140 million votes do. It's about participation. That's the only way a democracy can function. Ideally, you'd want 100% turnout, but 64.6% participation is closer to it than 64.5%.

You can't rate the value of your vote by whether your choice wins or loses.

One thing Australia does that would be easy and meaningful to implement over here is the "none of the above" option on a ballot. That's you telling the political parties to do better and would probably shake things up because a large chunk of voters are independent, they're flexible in who they vote for. Could you imagine if 20 or 30 million people chose "none" on Tuesday instead of feeling like they had to pick between the lesser of two evils or voting for the opposition because they're unhappy with the current regime.
That was what I thought you were getting at, but it was just vague enough that I didn't want to assume. Thanks again. agreed on all points.
 
so,

it sounds like you don't care if this election was also stolen, because your guy won? you don't actually care if it was fair? wouldn't ypu want all the media from both sides to expose any and all malfeasance?

WTF are you talking about? Every post I've made here has reinforced my desire for fair elections and open/truthful media. My last post literally said if there is any shenanigans it would be exposed.

The question I have for you is how in the actual fuck you could ask this goofy question after what I've consistently written here? Have you actuality read what I wrote? Are you a BOT? Are you perhaps so upset that perhaps you believe this election was rigged, and that belief somehow clouds your reading comprehension?

If you are noting that I only mentioned liberal media sighting shenanigans, my point is that they were utterly uncurius about what is now documented as massive voting irregularities in the 2020 election. I'm guessing conservative media will be honest about this one, as we've seen them expose false conservative claims by Trump and others time and time again over the last 4 years.

And whether I favor liberal media or conservative media exposing voter fraud, I still clearly support exposing it. Which demonstrates that I explicitly care about THIS election being fair.

Do you think this election was rigged? I'm open to listen honestly. Please give me the same courtesy.
 
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My gf wrote this...
I'm fine. Yesterday was a day of mourning. I came to the realization that Trump is not a con artist. Americans on the whole are misogynistic, racist, xenophobic, care little about the environment ... and have no interest in truth.
THE END

I replied...

Your summary of why she got beaten so badly may help you sleep at night, but it a perfect demostration of how devoid of reality your (plural) thinking has been... Those who don't learn from their mistakes are bound to repeat them. Those in denial don't learn from their mistakes. Both Biden and his presidency were a disaster. If not for the supreme court overturning Roe, the democrats would have gotten slaughtered in the midterms. Blaming the American people for this loss, rather than the failed policies of the democrats (don't make me list them again) is living in denial. Seeing how far from reality your thinking is here begs the question, "where else are you living in denial?"


Here's a lefty that's making a litle more sense

A Party of Prigs and Pontificators Suffers a Humiliating Defeat

By Bret Stephens

Opinion Columnist

Nov. 6, 2024


A story in chess lore involves the great Danish-Jewish player Aron Nimzowitsch, who, at a tournament in the mid-1920s, found himself struggling against the German master Friedrich Sämisch. Infuriated at the thought of losing to an opponent he considered inferior, Nimzowitsch jumped on the table and shouted, “To this idiot I must lose?”

It’s a thought that must have crossed the minds of more than a few liberal pundits and Democratic eminences late Tuesday night, as Kamala Harris’s hopes for winning the presidency began suddenly to fade.

How, indeed, did Democrats lose so badly, considering how they saw Donald Trump — a twice-impeached former president, a felon, a fascist, a bigot, a buffoon, a demented old man, an object of nonstop late-night mockery and incessant moral condemnation? The theory that many Democrats will be tempted to adopt is that a nation prone to racism, sexism, xenophobia and rank stupidity fell prey to the type of demagoguery that once beguiled Germany into electing Adolf Hitler.

It’s a theory that has a lot of explanatory power — though only of an unwitting sort. The broad inability of liberals to understand Trump’s political appeal except in terms flattering to their beliefs is itself part of the explanation for his historic, and entirely avoidable, comeback.

Why did Harris lose? There were many tactical missteps: her choice of a progressive running mate who would not help deliver a must-win state like Pennsylvania or Michigan; her inability to separate herself from President Biden; her foolish designation of Trump as a fascist, which, by implication, suggested his supporters were themselves quasi-fascist; her overreliance on celebrity surrogates as she struggled to articulate a compelling rationale for her candidacy; her failure to forthrightly repudiate some of the more radical positions she took as a candidate in 2019, other than by relying on stock expressions like “My values haven’t changed.”


There was also the larger error of anointing Harris without political competition — an insult to the democratic process that handed the nomination to a candidate who, as some of us warned at the time, was exceptionally weak. That, in turn, came about because Democrats failed to take Biden’s obvious mental decline seriously until June’s debate debacle (and then allowed him to cling to the nomination for a few weeks more), making it difficult to hold even a truncated mini-primary.

But these mistakes of calculation lived within three larger mistakes of worldview. First, the conviction among many liberals that things were pretty much fine, if not downright great, in Biden’s America — and that anyone who didn’t think that way was either a right-wing misinformer or a dupe. Second, the refusal to see how profoundly distasteful so much of modern liberalism has become to so much of America. Third, the insistence that the only appropriate form of politics when it comes to Trump is the politics of Resistance — capital R.

Regarding the first, I’ve lost track of the number of times liberal pundits have attempted to steer readers to arcane data from the St. Louis Federal Reserve to explain why Americans should stop freaking out over sharply higher prices of consumer goods or the rising financing costs on their homes and cars. Or insisted there was no migration crisis at the southern border. Or averred that Biden was sharp as a tack and that anyone who suggested otherwise was a jerk.

Yet when Americans saw and experienced things otherwise (as extensive survey data showed they did) the characteristic liberal response was to treat the complaints not only as baseless but also as immoral. The effect was to insult voters while leaving Democrats blind to the legitimacy of the issues. You could see this every time Harris mentioned, in answer to questions about the border, that she had prosecuted transnational criminal gangs: Her answer was nonresponsive to the central complaint that there was a migration crisis straining hundreds of communities, irrespective of whether the migrants committed crimes.

The dismissiveness with which liberals treated these concerns was part of something else: dismissiveness toward the moral objections many Americans have to various progressive causes. Concerned about gender transitions for children or about biological males playing on girls’ sports teams? You’re a transphobe. Dismayed by tedious, mandatory and frequently counterproductive D.E.I. seminars that treat white skin as almost inherently problematic? You’re racist. Irritated by new terminology that is supposed to be more inclusive but feels as if it’s borrowing a page from “1984”? That’s doubleplusungood.




The Democratic Party at its best stands for fairness and freedom. But the politics of today’s left is heavy on social engineering according to group identity. It also, increasingly, stands for the forcible imposition of bizarre cultural norms on hundreds of millions of Americans who want to live and let live but don’t like being told how to speak or what to think. Too many liberals forgot this, which explains how a figure like Trump, with his boisterous and transgressive disdain for liberal pieties, could be re-elected to the presidency.

Last, liberals thought that the best way to stop Trump was to treat him not as a normal, if obnoxious, political figure with bad policy ideas but as a mortal threat to democracy itself. Whether or not he is such a threat, this style of opposition led Democrats astray. It goaded them into their own form of antidemocratic politics — using the courts to try to get Trump’s name struck from the ballot in Colorado or trying to put him in prison on hard-to-follow charges. It distracted them from the task of developing and articulating superior policy responses to the valid public concerns he was addressing. And it made liberals seem hyperbolic, if not hysterical, particularly since the country had already survived one Trump presidency more or less intact.

Today, the Democrats have become the party of priggishness, pontification and pomposity. It may make them feel righteous, but how’s that ever going to be a winning electoral look?

I voted reluctantly for Harris because of my fears for what a second Trump term might bring — in Ukraine, our trade policy, civic life, the moral health of the conservative movement writ large. Right now, my larger fear is that liberals lack the introspection to see where they went wrong, the discipline to do better next time and the humility to change.
 
What is the punishment?
I was thinking that community service would be better than an actual cash punishment. I think it should be enough hours to really compel people from any income bracket to actually go and fulfill their civic duty, but if you really don't want to vote for whatever reason, you should get out their and do some work for your community and contribute in some way you feel is meaningful. And I do think it should be a significant burden, because voting isn't, and by not voting, you make the process inherently less democratic. I suggested earlier maybe 2000 hours of servivce, with 4 years to complete it. You should still have the write in option too, so you can even cast a protest vote for literally anybody. and reasonable accomodations should be made, like they do in Australia, which does have mandatory voting.
 
WTF are you talking about? Every post I've made here has reinforced my desire for fair elections and open/truthful media. My last post literally said if there is any shenanigans it would be exposed.

The question I have for you is how in the actual fuck you could ask this goofy question after what I've consistently written here? Have you actuality read what I wrote? Are you a BOT? Are you perhaps so upset that perhaps you believe this election was rigged, and that belief somehow clouds your reading comprehension?

If you are noting that I only mentioned liberal media sighting shenanigans, my point is that they were utterly uncurius about what is now documented as massive voting irregularities in the 2020 election. I'm guessing conservative media will be honest about this one, as we've seen them expose false conservative claims by Trump and others time and time again over the last 4 years.

And whether I favor liberal media or conservative media exposing voter fraud, I still clearly support exposing it. Which demonstrates that I explicitly care about THIS election being fair.

Do you think this election was rigged? I'm open to listen honestly. Please give me the same courtesy.
You said
If there was massive shenanigans in favor of Trump I hope the liberal media will work as hard as conservatives did to call it out.
Those words carry the strong implication that you don't care that the conservative won't media investigate it, which they won't because they liked this result, and they think this was a fair election.

It wasn't any more fair than last time, or the time before, or the time before, but not in the way you say it wasn't fair in 2020. The system is inherently not fair because of the electoral college, and the lack of representation given to anyone who doesn't pick one of the two main candidates. It's not fair that there is such a high financial burden to even get your name on the ballot. Its unfair how much money in general people are allowed to spend to get their message out and drown out the ideas of regular people who don't have the means. It was unfair the way the DNC fucked over Bernie in 2016. Neither party has your interests in mind, or mind. Your beef if with the billionaires that keep fucking all of us over and over, not with me, but it sounds like you don't get that and are just lashing out against me for calling out your hypocrisy. Your allegiance to a billionaire who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and has made such stupid choices that he lost more money than he made, and is still richer than we will ever be is what I find upsetting. you are falling for their culture war, while they wage class warfare against you. Wake up brother. I am on your team.

And Trump probably lost in 2020 only because Covid came at the start of the year, and people were so scared, they just wanted a little bit of the status quo, which was just a different flavor of getting fucked by the rich, with a little extra lipservice being paid to them
 
2020? You can interpret what I quoted about 2020 above however you want.

I think all the fallout from 2020 greatly likely curtailed some of the shenanigans this year. In fact, there are some shenanigans that were quickly caught this year.

Things have changed. It's more difficult to cheat. But that's just my opinion. If there was massive shenanigans in favor of Trump I hope the liberal media will work as hard as conservatives did to call it out.
After 62 court cases and team Trump being unable to provide any evidence of widespread voter fraud you would think the big lie concerning the 2020 election would be put to rest?
 
Governments should not be given any more punitive power through mandates, and the proverbial stick, than they already have. In fact, they should have less of that power than they currently do. History has demonstrated over and over again, that more
Power given to governing bodies, no matter how small that power may seem, has been abused and used to secure more power over people. Even if the penalty for not following the mandate is a “greater good” penalty, like you’ve suggested matias. Also do the math on how many work weeks would need to be community service to fulfill your 2000 hour suggestion, and explain to me how that wouldn’t put people in financial hardship.
 
Governments should not be given any more punitive power through mandates, and the proverbial stick, than they already have. In fact, they should have less of that power than they currently do. History has demonstrated over and over again, that more
Power given to governing bodies, no matter how small that power may seem, has been abused and used to secure more power over people. Even if the penalty for not following the mandate is a “greater good” penalty, like you’ve suggested matias. Also do the math on how many work weeks would need to be community service to fulfill your 2000 hour suggestion, and explain to me how that wouldn’t put people in financial hardship.
yea, for sure, that number means that you spend a lot of your off work hours doing community service. 500 hours per year means only 2 hours a day x 5 days x 50 weeks a year. It really isn't that unreasonable, especially if you are so vehemently against voting. Maybe if we had everyone voting, we could vote to reduce government authority in the places where they are over reaching, but when people are so fucking apathetic, it makes it so much more difficult for those of us who care to get the votes needed to not just get proposals onto the ballot, but actually get them passed. So many people are so apathetic, that they don't even bother to learn what measures are on the ballot, especially in non-presidential election cycles, even when they might be not voting on things they actually would be happy to see changed, if only they knew we had finally gotten that on a ballot.

The Aussies have had an entire century to repeal mandatory voting. Why haven't they? Like, I wholly agree that as little government as necessary is the ideal, we do have to contend with the shittiness that many humans bring to the table. You like having your private property rights, yes? You like knowing that murderers and rapists can't rape and murder with impunity, right? So what is your worry when it comes specifically to this one mandate, not any other?
 
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You said

Those words carry the strong implication that you don't care that the conservative won't media investigate it, which they won't because they liked this result, and they think this was a fair election.

It wasn't any more fair than last time, or the time before, or the time before, but not in the way you say it wasn't fair in 2020. The system is inherently not fair because of the electoral college, and the lack of representation given to anyone who doesn't pick one of the two main candidates. It's not fair that there is such a high financial burden to even get your name on the ballot. Its unfair how much money in general people are allowed to spend to get their message out and drown out the ideas of regular people who don't have the means. It was unfair the way the DNC fucked over Bernie in 2016. Neither party has your interests in mind, or mind. Your beef if with the billionaires that keep fucking all of us over and over, not with me, but it sounds like you don't get that and are just lashing out against me for calling out your hypocrisy. Your allegiance to a billionaire who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and has made such stupid choices that he lost more money than he made, and is still richer than we will ever be is what I find upsetting. you are falling for their culture war, while they wage class warfare against you. Wake up brother. I am on your team.

And Trump probably lost in 2020 only because Covid came at the start of the year, and people were so scared, they just wanted a little bit of the status quo, which was just a different flavor of getting fucked by the rich, with a little extra lipservice being paid to them

You have described YOUR beef. My beef is that however the legal voting system is defined, that illegal fuckery and voter fraud is not allowed. Your having a conversation with yourself, not me. If you were confused by my first post, somehow you conveniently ignored my explicit clarification that I just wrote in response to when you got it wrong the first time. And despite literally spelling it out in print, you appear to have zero comprehension of my position.

Maybe drink an extra cup of coffee if you want to have a conversation with me, because I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. And I don't like repeating myself for people who are incapable of having a rational conversation.
 
yea, for sure, that number means that you spend a lot of your off work hours doing community service. 500 hours per year means only 2 hours a day x 5 days x 50 weeks a year. It really isn't that unreasonable, especially if you are so vehemently against voting. Maybe if we had everyone voting, we could vote to reduce government authority in the places where they are over reaching, but when people are so fucking apathetic, it makes it so much more difficult for those of us who care to get the votes needed to not just get proposals onto the ballot, but actually get them passed. So many people are so apathetic, that they don't even bother to learn what measures are on the ballot, especially in non-presidential election cycles, even when they might be not voting on things they actually would be happy to see changed, if only they knew we had finally gotten that on a ballot.

The Aussies have had an entire century to repeal mandatory voting. Why haven't they? Like, I wholly agree that as little government as necessary is the ideal, we do have to contend with the shittiness that many humans bring to the table. You like having your private property rights, yes? You like knowing that murderers and rapists can't rape and murder with impunity, right? So what is your worry when it comes specifically to this one mandate, not any other?
This isn’t the only mandate I’m opposed to. It’s the one you proposed
 
and I agree with you that some mandates are excessive under some circumstances, but what is the problem you see with the specific one I have asked about?
Something about “participate in our democracy or else” doesn’t sit well with me. In fact that’s probably antithetical to the concept of democracy. That sounds like a citizen/govt relationship where the balance of power is already weighted heavily towards govt. is that the case in Australia?
 
. . . that illegal fuckery and voter fraud is not allowed. . .
Another thing related to this, that perhaps should not be allowed, is for a sour-grapes, egotistical loser to invent illegal fuckery where none exists, as an excuse to explain his loss, and then use it as a basis to instigate what we saw in the shameful attack on our capital. Trump's very first talk of election fraud came many months before the 2020 election and coincided exactly with the dropping poll numbers that first told him he had a chance of losing. His massively inflated and fragile ego simply could not handle that. In contrast to the way Trump handled losing, we just saw a peaceful transfer of power from a far better group of people. Now we will get the Dept. of Education abolished if he lives up to his promises, in case we are not already dumb and pliable enough. We will get the likes of RFK Jr. in charge of health, etc. We will see Ukraine thrown under the bus as Trump kisses Putin's arse, same with Gaza and the Palestinians as he chums with Bibi and probably gives us back the Muslim Ban. Even our right to peacefully protest any of the above is now in serious doubt. Remember his own people trying to talk him back from his solution of using the military domestically and simply shooting protestors? Those same relatively level-headed people will not be there this time. This time he is likely to have 'generals like Hitler had' (Trump's own words). And this time he even has immunity for any of this he wants to implement. We have shat in our nest big time, and an awful lot of his dipshite supporters will live to regret it same as the rest of us, but too late unfortunately.
 
Something about “participate in our democracy or else” doesn’t sit well with me. In fact that’s probably antithetical to the concept of democracy. That sounds like a citizen/govt relationship where the balance of power is already weighted heavily towards govt. is that the case in Australia?
something about nearly half of the voting aged people in this country not participating doesn't sit right with me, so who's feelings are more valid? what is you material case against participating? Let me ask you point blank, did you vote?
 
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