when you get tired chunking down a spar, do this

Re: re: jamoco

That's why the section copied is in quotations.

AS for the declining rates... OSHA is one of the last steps in a long line of government actions taken dating back to the 1880s. While post wwII rates were falling the economic boon of the 60s led to a rise (Historically, workplace accidents go up during times of economic growth) leading to the creation of the act.

Through a combination of actions driven by government, management, unions and employees there has been a decline in the dangers in the workplace. One of the key factors was the introduction of workers compensation law in 1908. Basically making accidents more expensive for employers. Here the free market then does kick in. Mind you it now had a set of rules to play by. All that WC did was set a bar that imposed a legal liability on employers that the courts were unwilling to do previously. Free markets did not establish better working conditions. A push back by those at risk did. While government isn't the sole answer its purpose to act for the whole of society gives voice to those that otherwise don't have one. But, that alas is a voice that can be bought...

While I support competition, entrepreneurship and initiative by individuals to make a better life for themselves, I don't believe this happens without a framework by which those competitors vie for business. The free market is driven by the bottomline and only if it is good for that will changes be made. Often efforts are made by the free market to resist any effort to improve safety as it is only seen as an expense without any upside (despite plenty of historic data to the contrary).

During the industrial revolution most factory and unskilled workers lived in poverty and didn't participate in the prosperity that was experienced by the few. Competition was quashed through unscrupulous practices. While much of the efforts of industrialists led to immense economic growth it was to the benefit of the few at the expense of many. I really haven't seen too many businesses that have sought to invest in capital equipment to make wages increase. Usually it is to reduce wage burdens as this is one of the only expenses a business has that doesn't have any asset value assigned to it on the balance sheet.

There is much more research being done to understand the dangers within the workplace and how it affects a business' operations and fiscal performance. However, improving wealth of society doesn't translate into a safer workplace and the data does support that. Why is that? We have seen it amongst our own ranks. Production trumps safety. Turnover due to improved economic opportunity leads to more new untrained workers who experience a higher accident rate. A lack of qualified workers to handle increased workloads leads to overwork and fatigue, again, a statistically significant contributor to accidents. Workplace safety has no limit if the willingness to continually improve conditions is ingrained in the culture of society and business.

Yes, the working people are the ones with the most vested interest in workplace safety but without organization and a collective voice they don't have sufficient clout to effect change. Remember the golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rules. And those rules will generally favor them keeping the gold.....
 
Re: re: jamoco

"I'm either winning or I'm learning is right!!!"
grin.gif
 
Re: re: jamoco

[ QUOTE ]
There's this federal outfit with the CDC called the NIOSH FACE Program that investigates fatalities at work, including woodchipper deaths on the job.

Each time a groundie gets sucked through a whole tree chipper NIOSH strenuously recommends that the tree industry establish a two man minimum mandate to prevent further woodchipper fatalities.

But on behalf of the huge outfits that run thousands of employees and chippers, Peter has managed to prevent the establishment of an industry wide two man minimum rule for whole tree chipper operation.

Whose interests are being protected in this bizarre scenario?

Why would TCIA oppose our govt's number one recommendation to prevent these gruesome deaths?

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/In-house/full9813.html

jomoco

[/ QUOTE ]

This does not cite whole tree chippers it cites all wood chippers. The problem I see with this reccommendation is it says within site of the chipper for the second person. With the speed of todays chippers and by the time someone is caught in it I dont think there is enough time for someone to act unless they are right at the chipper or within a few feet. If this reccommendation was enacted many small companies would not be able to comply. I operated as a 2 man crew for many years and this would not be feasable. Proper training would be much better.
 
Re: re: jamoco

Proper training is nice, but it is nothing without enforcement. People don't remember all precautions all of the time. We need to be reminded, hopefully by the guys we work with every day and not OSHA. But OSHA is there in case we forget. And it should be!

People think OSHA will always find something to cite. I have a good friend who was a crew foreman for about ten years. One day he was out with his crew roping down a large Pin. He noticed the OSHA inspector approaching and stopped work. When the inspection was done there was no citation written. Tight ship!

If you are one of those people who says "OSHA will always find something" it is because you know there are violations in your operation. Eliminate them!
 
Re: re: jamoco

[ QUOTE ]
Proper training is nice, but it is nothing without enforcement. People don't remember all precautions all of the time. We need to be reminded, hopefully by the guys we work with every day and not OSHA. But OSHA is there in case we forget. And it should be!

People think OSHA will always find something to cite. I have a good friend who was a crew foreman for about ten years. One day he was out with his crew roping down a large Pin. He noticed the OSHA inspector approaching and stopped work. When the inspection was done there was no citation written. Tight ship!

If you are one of those people who says "OSHA will always find something" it is because you know there are violations in your operation. Eliminate them!

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Enforcement from within is best.
 
Re: re: jamoco

I don't get you guys who are so adamantly against a two man minimum rule for operating a whole tree chipper.

I'd bet any one of you serious coin that you can't produce one tree service owner who has lost a man in one of these gruesome tragedies who still allows one man to hand feed a whole tree chipper as company policy?

This type of callous disregard for the average treeworker's well being is the most embarrassing aspect of this industry.

jomoco
 
Re: re: jamoco

I'm with you on the two man minimum for chippers (all chippers). But the second man probably won't have time to prevent the fatality, as Dr. John Ball has shown us. Less than 2 seconds to go completely through a chipper. I didn't sleep well after that presentation.
 
Re: re: jamoco

That's funny since Dr Ball is TCIA's paid stooge who pops up after each chipper fatality to carefully explain that it's not the WTC at fault, but the stupid mistake prone groundman!

Pure BS, proven empirically by the fact that not one chipper operator ever got spit into the back of a chip truck prior to the introduction of WTC's onto the market in 1989.

You guys who don't support a two man minimum rule that "shall" be enforced are denigrating the safety and lives of your own team mates.

This ugly truth needs to change in 2013.

jomoco
 
Re: re: jamoco

[ QUOTE ]
That's funny since Dr Ball is TCIA's paid stooge who pops up after each chipper fatality to carefully explain that it's not the WTC at fault, but the stupid mistake prone groundman!

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, Dr. Ball's statistics say it isn't the mistake prone groundman who usually goes through the chipper, but rather the complacent 40-55 year old small company owner who has been doing tree work for 25+ years.
 
Re: re: jamoco

Anything rather than facing the fact that WTC's are proven man eaters that should never be hand fed by one man alone, right?

Funny how righteous some of you are about helmets and PPE rules and regs being enforced while ignoring those that facilitate your fellow treeworker's being eaten alive on the job!

Ignore the Feds number one recommendation to help prevent these tragedies on the job at your own peril.

jomoco
 
Re: re: jamoco

I'm with you on WTCs, Jomoco. It should be a "shall" that they be a two man operation. My point though, is the second man would have to be extremely quick to save the other guy. Most likely, he wouldn't be quick enough. The second man would have to be standing there the whole time with his hand on the control bar to even have a chance of making a difference. Because most people's first reaction is disbelief.
 
Re: re: jamoco

I've witnessed a second groundie save a fellow groundie from being eaten by a WTC on three separate occasions in my career, firsthand.

I know better than to believe BS.

jomoco
 
Re: re: jamoco

I reversed someone out off the infeed hopper once in '93. I was easily 20' away. I was just like hop skipity jump. Doubt I could react that quickly now but boy <cough> when I was your age...
 
Re: re: jamoco

Jomoco, the problem is the push back by business owners who see these recommendations as added overhead without a return for them. WC laws worked because it made accidents more expensive than safety measures. If these recommendations are to be adopted the benefit to the company in increased productivity or efficiency needs to be demonstrated. If it only maybe saves them in the event of an accident then many employers are willing to take the risk.
 
Re: re: jamoco

Most the truly professional companies are wise enough to realize that a two man minimum rule for WTC operations works to their own benefit and peace of mind.

This reptilian mindset that any groundman who gets chipped on the job because of his own stupidity deserves all the blame will only get you so far before folks begin questioning dedication to safety in the work place.

Whether you're a tree service owner or the safety officer for the tree care industry associations makes no difference, when you purposefully put your own workers at risk of being chipped alive to pocket a few more bucks while ignoring the federal govt's top recommendations to prevent such cruel and unusual deaths on the job?

You deserve to be put out of business.

jomoco
 
Re: re: jamoco

When making a rule terminology needs to be correct and clear. Ive operated many whole tree chippers that would put a second man in harms way as there was no need for it. Maybey a better option would be to make available some kind of remote reverse button to be worn by all employees on the job. This would allow anyone to reverse the feed wheel without having to run to the chipper.

If a rule is enacted as you say every company using a non remote controlcrane would need at least 5 people in case one called in sick or was on vacation. That is not feasable.
 
Re: re: jamoco

[ QUOTE ]
Maybey a better option would be to make available some kind of remote reverse button to be worn by all employees on the job. This would allow anyone to reverse the feed wheel without having to run to the chipper.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or maybe a device to be worn by the operator/s to stop the chipper if they got into the chute?

parry.gif


-Tom
 

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