Rigging a rotting tree over a new roof

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Blinky, if those pics of that tree are not sending out the message to you, 'don't climb' then I seriously think you should re-assess your approach to workplace safety.

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Those pics say to me... 'No way to tell whether it's safe or not without seeing and touching the tree.' They definitely do not say, "excessive risk of injury or death."

The reason I'm going to task on this is that you're comments are dogmatic rather than pragmatic. Neither you or I can make a definitive judgment about that tree's safety without being there and doing a firsthand risk assessment. Without information to the contrary we have to assume the people doing the job DID do a risk assessment and judged it safe because, regardless of the inexperienced climber's practices, they climbed and wrecked the tree without it failing.

Peace neighbor, I like reading your posts...
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they climbed and wrecked the tree without it failing.



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Yeah.....your right, the tree was very safe to climb.

In fact it was so safe I'd put a trainee climber up there to practice on all day.

Get real Blinky, that job should have been done with bucket from the safe side of the tree, the access was there, so why didn't they use one? poor judgement?

Peace
 
I never said the tree was safe to climb... I can't say... because I'm a few hundred miles away.

Why no bucket? Probably because they didn't have one... just a guess.

I'm sure that for companies owning bucket trucks using a bucket is the first choice, makes sense. For me and a lot of other climber types, a bucket is pretty far down the list when it comes to solving a problem like that. I'm a lot more likely to guy the tree out and setup a highline on a really scary tree... I have two coming up in a couple of weeks that make this one look like the General Sherman Tree.

Your posts in this thread are the very definition of dogmatic... Sometimes I wonder if you're Grover reincarnated. I happened to like Grover by the way, we didn't always agree but he was a pretty bright guy.

There's more than one way to skin a cat and in the case of this particular tree, without evidence to the contrary, I have to assume the foreman used good judgment and put the tree safely on the ground by climbing rather than using a lift.

...and truthfully... buckets scare me a lot more than most busted trees... but that's just me.
 
Ok, Blinky....

....you guys never see it my way, which is a pity because I think I've got this treework thing down pretty good. I reckon I've got a natural empathy for working with large woody perennial structures. I've made a few mistakes in the past and I suppose i have a habit on TreeBuzz of reminding people of just how lethal this job can be. Let me just say I enjoy climbing and distmantling big trees from a rope and harness, but I have a cut off point where I simply rule out climbing as an option.

These days, I would not have even considered climbing rangerdanger's tree. I don't need to be in Kentucky to see that either. The large obvious structural defect is enough to rule out climbing.

Guys like you and Lazarus2 have been at this game so long you forgot where your heads are at. You and your ilk are myopic when it comes to climbing. One of my best friends has been climbing 20 years and he's just like you guys, he just can't see past climbing.

Face the facts - The rope and harness is just a means to get you into a work position to carry out your cutting. I've heard Lazarus2 saying he does not like buckets/aerial platforms because anyone can get up into a bucket to takedown a tree. Well, I for one believe that only experienced climbers should use a bucket to rig down big trees. In the right hands bucket trucks are an excellent work positioning tool which can decrease the level of risk of injury or death to the arborist.

I sometimes wonder if the whole climbing thing clouds our judgement as professionals. Some of the best work I have achieved as an arborist has been done from a bucket/aerial platform.

Its not always the answer but it is a serious option which should always be at the forefront of the working arborist's mind.

Peace
 
Yo Tock , who can see it your way when your ten different people ? Sure A bucket could have done the job , but from the picture it looked like the bad part of the tree already fell .
I'm sure that the other side of the tree was on it's own way before the other side decided to fall . I would've done it from a bucket , but I would've climbed it too . The fact that the tree still stood while they rigged it and climbed it speaks for it's self . Was that you in that pink skirt ? Peace ! Hows the crack ladd?
 
Sorry to butt into your conversation fellas. But again tockmal...you blokes say awt funny. We Canadians say it (owwwut) right.

To stick to topic here. I was trained if you can get it with the bucket, do it. If no access, yada yada, climb it. Being a bucket truck operator does NOT mean that one can't climb. Or at least it shouldn't.
 
Absolute and dogmatic attitudes are a good way to get hurt in tree work when things become different from the norm.

Tockmal:

Where in this thread did I say "don't use a bucket, just climb it"?

What are you so desperate to prove?

What makes you so confident that that tree is likely to fail with a climbers weight in it?

What process did you use to determine that decision?

Risk assessment is more than 'Ooooo! Scary looking tree, I'll do it from a bucket!"

If you wouldn't feel safe to do the job without a bucket, then thats your perogative. So what makes that gospel?

Bucket trucks are most definitely not an inherently safer means of dismantling trees anyway; they are just a different set of risks. So the point you quote me on is very valid.

Your personal attacks at anyone that doesn't see things the same way as you is unnecessarily abrasive and pointless as a means of positive discussion.
 
So often I see "criticism" without its necessary preamble "constructive." So in an attempt to "put my money where my mouth is," I have attached a word file that is an initial pre climb inspection I would have done with the available information.

Before opening please understand a few things. I agree with Blinky in that a few pictures and a brief description are not enough to base a climb/no climb decision on. I offer no critque on what was done, only how this tree should be approached

Second, I offer the folowing information only as an example of how I might complete an pre climb inspection. Please add or subtract as you see fit with the idea of "constructive" in mind. As arborists and professionals we have a golden opportunity to teach and learn here. Let us not squander it.



After viewing the attachment here is my take. I would have used a bucket, mostly because I have acces to one. I would have done it for safety reasons as well as time issues. Quite simply, I could remove this tree quicker out of a lift than in a rope and saddle.

Given that a bucket could not or would not be used, with current information, I would have climbed the tree with the following prerequisites:

I would have guyed the tree twice if possible, but at least once. I would intigrate this guy system in with my main rigging point.

I would use multiple rigging points were appropiate to spread load and stress keeping the loads lighter than normal and as static as possible.

I would attempt to remove the sections of the tree going in the opposite direction of my guy system first if possible.

Following these guidelines, I would then take the tree apart the way it was put together leaving no useless stubs etc.

Even if using a aerial lift I would most likely use the same precautions.

Lastly, I offer the observations as an experienced arborist in an attempt to help in future situations, not to affend or downgrade decisions already made. If you disagree, I respect that. Feel free to argue, but please let's add to the discussion not subtract.

Tony
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Attachments

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Your personal attacks at anyone that doesn't see things the same way as you is unnecessarily abrasive and pointless as a means of positive discussion.

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You took the wurdz right outta mah mouth.
 
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What makes you so confident that that tree is likely to fail with a climbers weight in it?

What process did you use to determine that decision?

Risk assessment is more than 'Ooooo! Scary looking tree, I'll do it from a bucket!"


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Lazarus2,

Your pseudo-religious obsession with 'scientific' treeclimbing worries me. You'll eventually climb yourself into a quandry. Although you make many good observations on arboriculture practices I reject your over-riding argument that rational logical western science will see us through.

Humans have evolved by instinctively assessing risk in every part of their lives for thousands of years. I value my instincts way more than any current industry best practice. You can't see the woods for the trees. In this case your putting your faith in your knowledge of tree biology and book learnt physics before your natural instincts. You've brainwashed yourself into believing rangerdanger's tree is safe to climb.

If ever there was lesson to be learned in this approach it is that of the tragic death of Pete Donzelli. We know very little about how trees work and the forces that they are subjected to throughout their lives.

When I see a tree like the one in rangerdangers pic my instincts kick in and I listen to them. Don't let this thread be the last thing that goes through your mind as the tree fails underneath you.

A bucket is the safest way. The climber has been removed from the tree, he is not relying on the tree as a life support anchor....what part of this do you not understand?
 
My only complaint was rigging out of the tree. If I could drop it all, I'd climb it no problemo.
 
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Lazarus2,

Your pseudo-religious obsession with 'scientific' treeclimbing worries me. You'll eventually climb yourself into a quandry. Although you make many good observations on arboriculture practices I reject your over-riding argument that rational logical western science will see us through.

Humans have evolved by instinctively assessing risk in every part of their lives for thousands of years. I value my instincts way more than any current industry best practice. You can't see the woods for the trees. In this case your putting your faith in your knowledge of tree biology and book learnt physics before your natural instincts. You've brainwashed yourself into believing rangerdanger's tree is safe to climb.

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Actually Tockmal, sounds like you are trying to squeeze me into a pigeon hole of who you think I am rather than who I actually am.
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After all the limitations of science, i rely on my intuition and expertise from ACTUALLY having done extreme tree work and learning more each time. You listen to your intincts and stay away from extreme tree work - thats a good thing. I listen to my instincts from having done extreme tree removal - thats a good thing. They just aren't the same thats all. Perceived risk and actual risk aren't the same thing. There are limits to what we can know.

And we are talking at crossed purposes anyhow - as I said, if I could get in a crane, I would. If I couldn't, I wouldn't lose sleep over it either.

As for bucket trucks, presumably you are confident that the tree won't fail through rigging? In which case, its safe enough to climb.

Like I said, shouting 'bucket truck!' shows you haven't considered all the options.

We can avoid or control risk as much we like - We are all dead men walking. If a tree doesn't get you, something else will. Watch out when your stabiliser sinks into the ground as you extend the reach on your MEWP.
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I listen to my instincts from having done extreme tree removal - thats a good thing.


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Define 'Extreme Tree Removal'




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As for bucket trucks, presumably you are confident that the tree won't fail through rigging? In which case, its safe enough to climb.

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There is a world of difference between accepting the risks inherent in rigging off a tree like that from a bucket and actually putting a live human being into that tree and expecting them to accept their fate in what ever form it may come in.
I never said I was going to rig it out of the bucket, I'd take in small sections.




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Like I said, shouting 'bucket truck!' shows you haven't considered all the options.

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Positioning a bucket or spiderlift on the safe side of that tree is an excellent choice for distmantling that tree, at no point during the removal is the bucket under or in line with the tree's potential fall trajectory, all the work could be done from the safe side. Thats the best option.




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We can avoid or control risk as much we like - We are all dead men walking.

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You've just bankrupted your whole philosophy with that statement. If we're all 'dead men walking' then why even bother with safety at all. Its a childish statement.



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If a tree doesn't get you, something else will.

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Strange philosophy for someone so pro-active about safety in treework and ergonomic climbing techniques.

One minute your against macho types next thing you sound just like them.
 
Look, everyone I didn't mean to cause all this trouble. I just wanted to show of a few pics of a tree we took down. We don't own a bucket and the companys around here that do don't really no how to use them and they use them way to much. Rigging with block, pulleys, etc is not extitent to them. Soory again for sparking all the trouble.
 
Don't fret it Rangerdanger...Tockmal enjoys the wind up, just back read most of the posts made under that name (or any of the other 4 or 5 that he chooses to use from time to time)

What most of us have been saying is that the intial tree assessment that made on every every job should drive how the job is undertaken...climb/MWEP/fell...the pics you gave us look iffy but its really quess work from looking at scaled down pics.
Again most of us intially stated that working from a bucket would have been the option, for both safety and speed (the combination of those two often leads to the MWEP choice in my experience)

We would all hope that if you and your dad don't have a written pre-start risk assessment process you adopt one quickly and use it to foster greater awareness of all safety issues on your job sites.

Don't be put off posting more pics of different jobs because stimulating useful debate even heated debate is what these boards are about...making all of us consider how we approach our work and how we would approach the work of others is an extremely useful and beneficial exercise.
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