Rigging a rotting tree over a new roof

I try to stay clean every day...lol
A picture is worth a thousand words but without being there to see the tree and the whole situation I find it really hard to pass judgment.
 
Looks like I'm odd man on this one.

I agree the tree looks iffy in the pics. What... nobody here ever climbs an iffy tree? You guys must be really lucky then, cuz I get to climb busted or dead trees fairly often... they're the ones that need removing. I'd love to only climb live healthy trees... but then I wouldn't love taking them down.

Maybe I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing in the images. To me it's a hazard tree but has plenty of green foliage and the crossection on the stem at the break is at least half or more of the diameter. Live red oak ... pretty strong stuff (I wouldn't call that one rotting). Most of the mass over the break and the rigging point was already off before they started rigging.

When stuff is iffy like that I use multiple TIPs/rigging points and/or take smaller pieces... I thought that's what everybody did.

Sure a bucket would've been great but would you rig off the bucket or the tree? I'd much prefer rigging off that tree than the bucket I was standing in. Around here 75 ton cranes cost $2000 minimum so that tree would be in the $2700 category using a bucket & crane before anyone made a nickel.

I'm not saying, "Hey Rangerdanger, you can climb that tree piece-o-cake." It's definitely risky because of that break and you can only evaluate whether it's worth climbing by being there, inspecting, sounding the wood and feeling the tree as you climb it.

So please don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating wreckless behavior, but at the same time I don't see why we should climb trees for removal at all if we're gonna call in the heavy equipment on every tree that isn't live and healthy.

OK, let me have it.
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there are many times when a fully green tree that looks aparently healthy fails. if you search through the forums here that will become apparent. So me personally, when I see a tree that looks like that and has been hit by lightning twice in 7 years and has possible massive root damage and now half the weight that the tree was used to ballancing is suddenly removed, there is no telling when it might fail. The access for a bucket is there so why not use it. Trees are in a constant state of movement and so build reaction wood to deal with those stresses. When half a tree is removed, the dynamics change and the forces within the stem and root plate change. I would not feel comfortable climbing that tree. I don't get paid enough to take those risks. imo
 
I'm sure many would climb that tree if there was absolutely no access for equipment. But I also think many would have used ropes and cable to prop, brace it before going aloft. But there's perfect access for a bucket, maybe crane might be overkill if a tight budget is involved, but it seems hardly worth the risk to me with such perfect access.

Getting the climber out of the situation in case the tree does decide to fail would be the major benefit of using the bucket.

jp
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Well every time we tell him he looks at us and gives use the finger and says F--- off. Then, when my Dad explains to his brother(ground guy) to always look at the climber, he gives my Dad the finger and acts like they alreay know it all, which they don't. [...]

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Then I would give them one or two warnings and fire them if they don't catch on...


As for using a bucket... I don't have one so no matter how good the access is I would either climb or walk away. And again, say you have a bucket, how do you get the pieces over the house... rig off the bucket? That would mean a zero or negative rigging point and dynamic loading on the bucket. I don't know squat about buckets but I'm guessing that's not exactly a safe practice either.

I'm more than willing to walk away from a tree if I believe it's unsafe. Judging solely from the pictures though I'm pretty surprised at how people are judging it categorically dangerous. Working contract I've been sent up far worse by a highly experienced, respected member of this forum. I don't enjoy climbing on iffy wood but for me it's part of the job.

I agree its one thing to climb and entirely another to rig off such a tree, but still, how can you judge without actually being there?

The issue of root plate stability is definitely something I would be mindful about when rigging, but not climbing on a massive, live tree like that one. The odds of a climber alone being able to tip that balance are astronomical.

All I'm really saying is, it seems over-reactive to state that that tree is too dangerous to climb without actually seeing it first hand... and as an adjunct to that, I wish i had the luxury of a bucket truck and crane on virtually any takedown but I simply can't afford it nor would my market bear it if I could... maybe one day.

Peace ya'll.
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They don't perfrom the proper techinque, safety, etc. And we wanted to keep the cost low. The tree was pretty much sound for the removeal, etc. And yes, that climber in the limb walking photo knows nothing of what he was doing. He dosen't understand alot of basics, like keeping the slack put of your line, lanyarding in, etc. When they were taking out the half that fell he was tied in to the main tree, and was cutting a limb UNDER TENSION and it flipped the piece he was standing on. He too a swing into the trunk and was ok, but my Dad and I were glad to see him take a swing/hit and show him how important it is to keep slack out of your line, and be carefull when cutting a limb under tension. We just hope he learns from these little incidents and trys not to let them happen again.

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You guys need help!! You're supposed to tell the climber before he gets nailed. That's just wrong. If that were you in the tree, wouldn't you want someone to warn ya 1st?
Talk to some locals to get help before we read about it in the newspaper. Any locals want to help??
 
Blinky your opinion was the exact same as mine. I was just trying to put it nicely. I would have climbed it and roped it off.. the canopy of that tree looks healthy, and in most cases root decay is shown through the ends of the limbs as with many other problems. Our specimen seems to have a fairly healthy status and you have a perfect cross section view of the tree. I think it looks fairly healthy. The crack down the side would concern me most. When 50% or more of the trunk still appears healthy and doesn't appear to have started to rot signifacantly I wouldn't be overwhelmed with fear. especially in a red oak... a willow or a quaken aspen I would think a little more about. If You cut weight of it and don't shock it hard then where is the problem. That is far better than some trees I have climbed for utility companies. A good climber should know whats best for his own well being and know when its time to throw in the towel. By the way blinky I'll be in your neck of the woods tomorrow I might give you a call for dinner. I got a good workout down here today so I might be a little tired.
 
I would hardly call what i saw being roped, rigging. How would you do that tree between two million dollar houses 8 feet apart with NO bucket access
 
Good job! IMHO that tree was fine to climb,just because it had a failed union and split doesnt mean its lost its strengh to lower a few small limbs off.
 
Nice pic... but how feasible is it that the Irish Air Corps has a 30 Ton crane in there... and if they are flying to save me I'm already in trouble
 
I would have climbed that tree, but I would have done things differently than the pics.

I might or might not have run a couple lines to stabilize the tree, but on removals, theres a few things that I always do...

Here's an easy one to start with:

No Stubs. When I work a tree, if I dont have a very specific reason for leaving a stub, big or small, I cut the limb all the way back to a flushcut. Stubs always get in my way. Lines catch on them, pieces hang up on them, and they present a hazard to me should I swing or slip. Also, if you free-fall a piece, and it hits a stub, it will go spinning off to who knows where. If you go into powerline clearance, stubs are a target for a cut limb to hit and then bounce into the lines. No Stubs, this includes 4' long stubs as big around as a coffee can. Get rid of them.
 
Totally agree on the no stub thing...I leaned that the difficult way. I had to leave big ones on a large souther red oak removal once though, but i planned my way around them. I had to climb it to take the top out and then i could finish it in the bucket so didn't want to have to climb the whole tree with a 440 to take the branches off. it worked well but i did a lot of redirecting to change by drop zones so nothing went near the stubs.
 
The tip about stubs is always valuable often left through rushing or fatigue or poor planning.

Rangerdanger get yourself The climbers companion, and (if you can afford it) The art and science of practical rigging. Try to get along to any regional Arb meets esp climbing displays, or if there are any good climbers in your area try to pinch some time to watch them at work (even if the firm they work for does poor quality arb work) you can gain a lot from watching good climbers apply prior planning, and adapt their work to changing circumstances in the tree.
Once you have a reasonable grasp of the fundementals you can make good use of watching poor climbers by considering how you would do it better/safer/more efficiently.

As I said before every one of us has in the past made poor decisions and like a number of others I have in the past climbed much worse trees than the one in your pics (not rigged of them mind you)

Good sound Arb firms always have a clear plan of how they intend to approach each job..esp important on tricky take downs...most esp on tricky take downs with rigging envolved. everyone in the crew must understand what the plan of attack is where the assessed risks and problems will be and how they are to be managed. Its very hard for you and your dad if the other two guys are behaving like such idiots...they'd last 5 secs in our crew then have the gear taken off them and pointed to the exit. One way of avoiding such problems is to have a written set of protocols or procedures for every job and to follow them (safety is always top priority). That way when new guys join the crew thats the way things are done no discussion no room for dissent.
 
Hiring. Firing. Training. "teach 'im a lesson" All are poor attitudes.

The goal is mentorship. But you need a good mentor to be well mentored.

I won't comment on the tree, it's unfair to from so far away. But I do smell a lack of experience and poor mentorship attitudes.

rangerdanger.......your starting young, like I did (dragging brush @ 16) that's awesome.

Remember this, every close call brings you 1 step closer to a bad accident.

(anybody have the fatality-near miss triangle?)
 
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