Reducing trees is unnatural?

Archived TCI issues are available, but it'd be good to have more info on that.

Kevin not sure what you are asking--reaction wood where? As Frank Telewski says, all wood is reaction wood...
 
I AM a big believer in cables, especially for included unions. HOWEVER I have become a bigger believer in reduction on most mature hardwoods. Offers protection of more than just one branch union.. trees do really well. Still put plenty of cables in. If 1 in 10 big trees needs a cable, then 1 in 2 needs some type of reduction.. (just guesstimating)

Also having a 75' bucket truck which can easily get to most of the reduction work needed makes a huge difference in approach.
The bucket shouldn't matter to what the tree needs it makes tip reductions easier but you shouldn't sell a job based around your toolbox you should base your toolbox around each job and the trees needs
 
Archived TCI issues are available, but it'd be good to have more info on that.

Kevin not sure what you are asking--reaction wood where? As Frank Telewski says, all wood is reaction wood...

As limbs grow they put on 'support' wood in different places to support during sway, etc. If we reduce its need does the Tree reallocate supplies right away or next growing season or ...? ' healing' codit, etc should not apply to the support system because the small cuts are farther out.
So how do we effect the trees built in structural support? It should be sufficient as is but trees grow what they need when and where they need it.
But we're reducing sway but adding girth to the limbs ratio.
 
Kevin please read the Gilman/Grabosky paper, for starters...light reductions lessen sway, not eliminate it, so not clear on the concern here. Maybe the other Kevin S. will take a stab at this...
 
I like that KevinS is thinking about these allometric points. I can say that this is logical and that is unreasonable, but in some ways we've gone beyond what we know. Or at least for that for which I may be authoritative,.
But we do know some stuff and we can explore more as is well-outlined above. We know that the presence of decay shouldn't automatically mean removal. We know that trees fail from cracks as much or more than decay. We know that topping and flush cuts often result in cracks. We know that most all temperate-zone forest trees get their tops knocked out and many survive for decades or centuries. We know there is a lot of teaching and learning to do.
 
http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/resources/Pruning_YoungTrees.pdf

That nasty 3 cut method for pruning is still all over the place on the web.... PROOF POSITIVE of how slow to change our industry is...

Then they want to say this is only for small trees... no matter... put the top cut right over the under cut please..


everybody complains about the weather but no one does anything about it- Mark Twain
(substitute "the state of education promoted by institutions in the tree care industry" for weather)
 
http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/resources/Pruning_YoungTrees.pdf

That nasty 3 cut method for pruning is still all over the place on the web.... PROOF POSITIVE of how slow to change our industry is...

Then they want to say this is only for small trees... no matter... put the top cut right over the under cut please..


everybody complains about the weather but no one does anything about it- Mark Twain
(substitute "the state of education promoted by institutions in the tree care industry" for weather)
So proper branch collar cuts are bad? Just cause reduction is one good tool doesn't mean branches never need to be removed
 
Kevin please read the Gilman/Grabosky paper, for starters...light reductions lessen sway, not eliminate it, so not clear on the concern here. Maybe the other Kevin S. will take a stab at this...

Guy

Thanks, I read through a chunk so far. I actually got to see/listen to Gilman present in person a few years ago. I get the less length/sail = easier time for the trees. Gilman also repeatedly said (I'm paraphrasing)the only pruning worth doing is structure pruning. Thinning was useless and a waste of time(not paraphrasing). So he likes reduction, that's good.

But that point has been made and wasn't my question.

We've all seen the rings on a lateral stem that doesn't grow straight up.(http://www.wesspur.com/tree-rings.html) is a picture right on a homepage.

More rings will grow either under or over the pith. This puts strength and support where the trees structure needs it or limbs would be apt to fail.

This is a perfectly normal thing, but when we or nature reduce these limbs repeatedly to get a preferred diameter to length ratio the limb has less stress from 'whipping'. Diameter will add weight but less moment stress.
Do we know how much we retard the growth of the rings at the union, if any? Will the limbs try to return to a more uniform circular growth by changing growth habits?

So when we change the length growth how does that effect ring pattern futures?
 
Kevin
You bring up a very good question around reduction. Basically, how do we change the affect of reaction wood when we reduce? Does the tree start to put on even rings instead of beefing up compression or tension wood as it did before the reduction? I suspect there is a reaction and that the rings do deviate from pre reduction pattern in the rings.
So as we over build the tree does it start to under build to suit.
More to say later
Thanks Kevin
 
pretty much any mature hardwood with big, heavy, long horizontal or near horizontal limbs, that has open light to reach for, can benefit from reduction pruning, targeted to specific limbs. The amount of reduction on each limb will be effected by a number of factors including size, reach, species, structure, defects, potential for damage to people or fixtures, client's tolerance for risk. Like pornography its not easy to define, but I know it when I see it. Ask me where's my science and I'll ask you where's your common sense.
 
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v2/15/03/05/372d2921fbe8913af93b6a41ef083d4f.jpg[/IMG
Ginko before
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Ginko after
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Large dbh.
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Before and after from similar point of view. Unfortunately I wasn't so good years back at before and afts so zoom or perspective may be misaligned. When taking before and after line up an object in a corner of the field of view and use same zoom. No zoom is easy to be precise. And mark your spot.
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Photo today. Six or so seasons later.
Wow I had to edit. This is the first time I've studied these pics. Maybe it was only five seasons ago. I can't believe how good the reaction was compared to the soft hardwoods or even red oak. It actually appears that the extension slowed for years. The size and sail has only barely if even completely returned, but the diameters have five or so years growth. One theory is that reduction like this (or even lighter reduction or thinning) is pointless because it grows back. Yes it grows back but diameters are now bigger. And consider the fact that had the pruning not been done, the tree would have grown larger, not stood stagnant. I'm happy with the visible increase in taper. even after the reduction as extension was subordinated. I like that term I used to use years ago. I used to ask clients and about half liked the term. I think it has a place but reduction is simple and good for communication. Sorry just more speculation, but in the eyes of progress.

This was a very difficult one to reduce but It needed it. Or at least it is stronger and better off in a storm event. Difficult mostly because there are no natural elbows so the reduction cuts were heading types. Bad terminology I know. The point is I had to create a deviation in the natural straight flow of the form.
As you might see from the trunk pic, there are many issues with twisting and bending stems. This problem is compounded by large wounds that are minor for now but are close to the main crotch. Also adding to the problem is the multi stem issue. Not really bad but means that most stems are leaning.
This tree is made up of mostly uprights but some of them reaching or leaning.
Not horrible structure to begin with so not a heavy app. I think this was around 2007 or so and hasn't been done since. And doesn't necessarily need it again but could be improved further with a light thin/reduction. Remember that thinning done correctly means working near the outer canopy to reduce end weight, As defined by ISA. Thinning out is bad yes, but the 'out' is not proper terminology and somehow suggests removal of inner branches. Proper Thinning is 'thinning in' and is a relevant form of reduction. light reduction and often enough for a second app.
Anyway it's been years and I took no notes or mess pics. But I remember it well. Very difficult as branches were long and continuous without bends. This is another example of being forced to influence the beauty of the form. Just thinning and making small removal cuts on larger stems is not enough. And this nature can be somewhat restored on the second app. At this point I better put door knocking back in the toolbox if I want to see that second app. Better than a phone call.
So I made 100-200 end cuts to reduce overall size and sail and to improve taper. Hand saw and pole pruner. Lengths averaging 4 feet but several around 6-8 feet. Also many around 1-3 feet. Max green diameter cut around 2-2.5 inches. Maybe one or two around 3" as upper canopy removal/thin cuts. A very complex crown and so old that favouring stems was done to some degree but mostly a balanced dose throughout otherwise. The idea was to improve the taper of everything to some extent.
So one main reason I went less heavy was because of the straight growth habit. Like ash or hackberry. Contrast with oak or Willow or locust which give more options when reducing. I recently learned the hard way I could've reduced more on some hackberrys that broke in the ice. I thought they were stronger and also I didn't want to deviate from the natural form. Oops, shoulda reduced them in a civilized way but Mother Nature did it her way.
Also would like some feedback on ginkgo and compartmentalization ability as I have very little experience with this species. That's the second reason also to not reduce too heavy. I didn't want to put large wounds in the tree. And from looking at the old wounds I'd say it wasn't excellent at wound closure. But I do wonder if some trees handle wounds well even if they don't close over well. Many can go for decades with large open wounds. I suspect any species can do this if it has good vitality and resources.
I do remember thousands of stinky fermenting fruit on the ground. almost to the point of feeling sick. A big thing to consider when planting these. Planting the male trees is an option as the foliage is perhaps the most unique. Broadleaf softwood. But I don't have an opinion on whether this should be on urban tree lists?
You can see in the photo that I took today that it's reacted well and not shot up too much. Almost looks like it could go longer. Still though, being likely the largest in that town, it is an important tree to me, the client, and all the neighbours who get to see it daily. So I wouldn't call another application overkill I'd call it special treatment.


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Great that you're so enthusiastic about managing tree risks for the long term Ryan.

However, I might express a opinion, which expands upon my earlier comment regarding shrub pruning aptitude being reflected in a quality tree canopy reduction.

It drives me bonkers observing the effects of landscapers wacking away at Burning Bush, Purple Sandcherries and other woody ornamental shrubs with gas trimmers. The result is like the fast right of this;
image.webp
(aren't secateurs cheaper than gas powered hedge trimmers anyway!!)

It seems to me many of your outer canopy biased reductions are responding in similar fashion to to the hedge trimmed woody ornamental shrubs. I would advise that a balance between shallow, outer canopy cuts and deeper, inner canopy cuts needs to be achieved.
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Attachments

Texture debate.
At first I want to scream. But after a time out I realize that these are your honest observations and thank you. And from pros. Make sure to view pics on a full size screen. I will have to show a tree I did where texture was increased. (My cheesy utube video shows an increase in texture.). the texture was not sheared or shaped in the ginko as it appears. No goal of shaping but a goal of reducing everything due to twists and wounds at main crotch. Round over look was a side effect at best. Again I was hesitant to post these pics but I believe in this far more than the shaping app on the Freemanii which I believe in as far as correcting spread but not ratios. As I said in the hazards thread, I want to show debatable reductions and this tree has no excellent solution especially when the goal was decreased size overall. No goal to retain natural look which requires retaining some terminal buds to continue natural extension. Instead the goal was to reset terminals ALL lower down. Temporary extension prevention and diameter increase equals taper equals LESS STORM DAMAGE equals longer more quality life.
So texture is something we don't discuss enough. And I've used it wrong on treebuzz once before. Anyway norways and Colorado spruce have fine and medium texture with many buds reaching the crown extremity. Walnut and poplar have coarse texture and oak maybe medium. Obviously these species can vary but I think you know what texture I'm defining.
Texture in hedges is very black and white. A hedge trimmed often and velvety is very fine texture and very little head back ability. A natural cedar that is stressed often has a very coats texture that can be headed back to almost the main stem. Cedars by the way are far more resilient to heavy reduction than many tree guys believe. For specific goals I've cut two thirds off the top and without one out of twenty showing the slightest stress. Back on track. Norway maples often look like round overs or even square round overs to begin with. texture in these becomes more coarse, whether you apply natural reduction or heavier reduction. But texture in poplars is often finer after the reaction growth fills in. And this texture can be thinned and restored on the second app.
This certainly appears to be a round over. It's not. All cuts are nodal. this tree was broken down into fractals. So each 4" branch was reduced with SEVERAL cuts (removal and reduction type)at variable diameters between about 2.5 and 1/2 inch. The ginko shape was fairly round to begin with. You do have a point though mangoes as I could have taken some cuts further in but I hope your not suggesting from the interior. I think your referring to 15 feet in from the edge instead of just five feet where most cuts were made. Some cuts were made 10 feet in. If you look close you'll see that all branches were reduced, including more inner areas. So inner reduction cuts were made but as I'm not very familiar with ginko I avoided 3" reduction cuts. Which are worse than 3" removal cuts. And 3" removal cuts could now be made as part of thinning reduction on the second app.
A lighter or less thorough more natural app would have definitely retained a more natural look and would have made texture coarser. Coarser being better imo. But that would have limited the improvement in taper and therefore storm resilience capability. Again look at pics. The natural app would have produced a larger more vulnerable structure. Better looking yes. More vulnerable too. Thorough reduction is something I practice half the time or less to create overbuilt trees for good reasons. And in this tree I accomplished that with cuts under 2.5". Overbuilt in some ways but under built to begin with. In nature in groups trees are stronger, but still not ideally strong. They still broke in the ice. The point is that most trees are naturally designed to be strong enough for an average storm and otherwise must extend to compete. They don't aim for a long life. They aim for a long existence by way of reproduction. In the forest that is fine. In the urban canopy that can be tweaked. Urban trees often grow big and fail and get removed due to risk or perceived risk. We can create urban trees that grow big and remain big for much longer. Planting is good but retaining is better. And retaining with high quality.
Thanks for reading



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"No goal of shaping but a goal of reducing everything due to twists and wounds at main crotch."

Still not clearly stating the objective. Reducing everything aka shearing is a method or specification, not a goal aka objective.
What was it about the twists and wounds that called for overall reduction, at the expense of natural form (such as it was when you came to that tree)? why do you call it 'underbuilt'?

Less cuts and a few bigger ones might have left more longterm stability, more natural form, and MUCH lower maintenance. You trained a lot of foliage to develop at the edge, which tends to shade out interior growth, right?
using secateurs or hedge shears, it's still shearing.

Scream if you want but that is still literally a roundover, similar to the columnarisation of the A freemanii.
Look to the future, does that really lead to a longer life?

Take a breath, reread the A300 and Gilman's stuff, and slow down. A logical flow to your response will indicate a logical approach to your pruning, not shear madness.
 
Are you suggesting 3"-4" cuts then? With 1" now leading? I'm not saying I wouldn't have made slightly larger cuts. But very limited due to the nature of the branch to stem ratios in that particular upper canopy.
Goal of reducing risk of failure. Objective to avoid failure which it already has and will again. But next storm will require more energy in order to fail larger branches, limbs, or stems. You can see the bolder look in the bottom pic. Taper.
I took a breather today half way up a Norway, so I'm good. 3-4" cuts in it but by client demand, not my choice. Pics coming.
And yes I should read that A300. I'm sure it's got lots on reducing complex old Ginkos:) really though I should read it
Possibly a longer life if the increase in taper prevents 12"-20" failure. Again I don't know the next storm. Toronto 2013 ice, it's good. For Barrie Ontario 1985 tornado, reduction at the ground is the only safe answer. Quebec ice 1998, some Failure yes. Big failure maybe, hopefully not.
And yes the ginko is STILL shading its inner canopy. Good for shading the bark:) Plus retrenchment not the goal. Bigger tree a goal but bigger slower, stronger better taper everywhere. Reduced extension. Less chance of failure everywhere.
Twists and bends are prone to shear cracks. The only time worth mentioning 'shear' on this one:)

Mangoes I've seen those before. Trying to relate that ginko to those textbook pics is missing the scale issue completely. The best thing I learned from text book stuff like that was the basics. The second best thing I learned was that the tree and its reactions teach me the complexities, where 2d schematics will never. Complexities that are only learned by in the tree experience.
I love science. But the science in arboriculture needs to catch up with the common sense. This scaling up is a huge issue in arboriculture. Applying small tree ideas to large complex structures. Reducing a 12" co Dom with a 6" reduction cut is not like reducing a 4" co Dom with a 2" reduction cut. (On 18" and 6" trunks). Depending on species and vigour suggest detailed reduction instead.
I used gas powered trimmers on one ivory silk and one Apple. Both of which have since been done with secateurs and handsaw to restore texture. I should add that the apple looked pretty good with the power trimmer to an average person and took half the time. So I agree and I now use the power trimmer on the cedars and other small shrubs. I used to use them on spruce. Sorry. Especially when removal was the request due to width but I now use the secateurs. The worst thing I did was include those in my posters. But they are still an example of reduce and retain. And I don't think it was as bad as you think. Not ideal though. Next app will involve coarser texture and less cuts.
As for the ginko the next app should involve restoring coarser texture. Texture that isn't bad but the result of detailed reduction.
See top two photos. Also zoom in. Inner reduction cuts are there. Texture is actually not totally lost. But yes this systematic reduction looks a bit like a round over. Not a lot. Remember scale. That crown is sixty feet wide.


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Yes and a fixable concern. But not overly necessary to fix. It's a trade off for extension prevention. And clearly you can see the extension slowed. Especially when you imagine the before going unpruned. Reduction is largely about trade offs. This tree was like a Norway to begin with. Mostly outer foliage. And still mostly outer foliage. It's harder to fix the concerns that arise from 3-4" cuts leaving 1" leaders. Also making a more unnatural look unless you select some 4" limbs to stay intact and stay at risk and continue extending. Not that extension is bad. It's good for competition with other trees. But slender extension leads to a higher risk of failure. And I'm not saying different apps don't work. But they all are ideal with follow up apps. And again this was not an easy tree to deal with in terms of reduction. Not a lot of options. If it reacted like oak I could have made some bigger reduction cuts further in to make coarser texture.
So does anyone have experience with Ginkos reaction to reduction cuts.?If it's like sugar maple then I'm happy with what I've done. If like oak, then I'm happy but could be happier.
Letting the tree continue without reduction on a base like that is a significant concern.

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