Reducing trees is unnatural?

Bark slipping is bad damage yes but ime it's worse later in the season when more sap is up...May-June here in NC. Cambium active makes it a GOOD time to prune, as the response is stronger.

Plus with that tree it's ladder and pole work, so is climbing really a factor?
Nice of you to cover for RR, but let's not myth the point. ;)

Ryan, this animation shows very well what I was trying to Paint:

http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/structural-animate-prune.shtml
 
Last edited:
this is awesome.
Pelorus and Guy Great points on both arguments. So I guess I did the right thing but I didn't know why. I stayed off the bark which I have damaged during this time in the past. I pruned from the ground.
I know that clearly I have not done the structural work. But I have improved uprightness in the meantime. Furthermore, this Freenanii is a very complex structure and often an attempt to 'correct' makes it worse. Just try explaining an improvement process? It better not involve an attempt to correct in one dose. This tree needs tlc over time, slowly selecting dominant limbs. Correction in one shot would likely ruin aesthetics long term and uprightness and structure long term and longevity. Ok a run on sentence but if you correct all these co dominants you'll have one skinny slender leader ready to break without all that current protection. And I know very very well that there is opposition to that but in this common Freemanii case it's black and white. You can't apply those rules to this tree like you can a two stemmed. Some of these are 12 stemmers. Then what? Slow progressive improvement not correction. I've heard from a few sources biologically bud break is bad time. Mostly I prune all year but thanks for the tips Guy. I've got lots to learn.
 
"Guy, that maple is a red silver. Probably autumn blaze. And I know it still needs careful structural work. I went easy because of time of year (bud break) but achieved objective. "

OK so it's a freemanii; thanks. Hugely overplanted exotic in your area; an alternate host for bad pests on natives--attached.

Why do you think budbreak is a bad time to prune? That makes no sense biologically, especially on a rampant growing species. Myth #78 is that dormant season is the best time, and to avoid pruning "when leaves are forming or falling". I probably said that 1000 times in the past millennium, and was wrong 900.
Leave Shigo behind on that one--he was overcautious based on guessing not experience. Read Dujesieffken, Gilman et al.

What objective did you achieve?

I hear what Kevin's saying with short pruning cycles, but I do not agree that arborists should wait for the call rather than scheduling future visits. We're not firemen are we?

I'm not saying never talk to your clients, but if you work for a year pruning, etc every work day multiply that by 5 or 6 crews how do you manage site visits to everything you've done? Do you prioritize on a scale of 1-5 when you're done?

I've seen presentations and books claiming that trees will grow 6'/year and maybe in willow sprouts,etc that's true but but I've worked on plenty of trees that don't even put on 6"/ year. So if the trees here are growing less rapidly than say some in florida wouldn't that equal a bigger gap between visits?
 
Guy I just noticed your pic for prescription. Haven't studied it yet but it looks good assuming the tree was that big. The tree is about 40 feet tall. Uprights about 2-4 inch diameter. I agree with your plan if it's scaled down but I also realize it looks like a bigger tree than it is. Structurally I'd keep cuts to 0.5-1.5 inch. Possibly the odd 2 inch to remove a co dom. But more likely would reduce as a temporary and remove later when ratios are better. I'll take a closer look and take a shot at a prescription.
 
Kevin
Let me shine perspective on this assessing trees after pruning thing. First of all yesterday was not for report and not for money. It was for me to learn from the best educator. The trees response. I learned a lot yesterday. I was passing them anyway. Otherwise depending on targets and decay you may not need to go back at all. If decayed bad every one to three years depending on target and damage ability in the event of failure.
You should take every chance you get to drive by a pruned tree. Better yet, get out and look. If it's not been a while observe and learn. If it has been a while contemplate the next app. If it's reacted like an invigorated tree and gained back some of the risk it had before pruning then call them. I did this a month ago for a 200 cm oak that was retrenched in Toronto. 4-8" cuts. 15-25' lengths. Reacting well but one more cable would take it from a 70% to a 95% in my opinion. It may be a 85 now but in a few short years that number could go up or down depending on the advancement of decay vs advancement of annual rings ratio change. So I know at some point it will need the cable so why not now? Anyway sooner the better, although it could go 10-30 years or more as is. Again, where is that next downburst going to hit. 100m away? 1000m away? Or right on the spot?
 
'If decayed bad every one to three years depending on target and damage ability in the event of failure.'

If your selling that the tree is so bad that it needs yearly maintenance do a lot of your customers ask for removals? Yearly maintenance in tree terms is a lot. So that equals more risk for them and they are paying for a prune every year or 2 fiscally then sometimes the removal looks cheaper in the long run.

Again to drive by and look how do you moderate that. It would take 6 months for me to site check every tree we've done in a couple years.

Another thing is if people expect your random site visits they'd expect you to notice and contact them at a problem, but what if you miss something driving around? It makes it seem that you are taking some of the onus off the homeowner and on to yourself, is there a liabilty issue in there any where, or only if you sell them on it?

Have you ever reduced a tree saying we can save it for a while then go back a year later and your 10 year plan is shot for sh*t and now they have to pay out 2 yeas in a row? Not that you'd do it on purpose but things happen and you don't want a rep as a swindler. How do you deal with that?
 
Last edited:
Thanks Ryan, "The tree is about 40 feet tall. Uprights about 2-4 inch diameter." Yup that's why I specced cuts 1-4", thinking that one or two of those codoms could come all the way off, but most would be reduced aka subordinated. Bluntly, I cannot understand postponing that scaffold work for a minute.

So much info on this at Gilman's site, for young trees, paid for by fed grants. I'm putting my tax $ to work by devouring it right now, again. I might spend 20 hours prepping for this 2 hour talk but it's time well spent. This chat is a big part of that prep; thanks to all!
For big trees, Gilman's approach does not work well ime. It's based on extrapolation of his work with little trees. Ryan and dozens of others I've met have a better handle on big old trees, based on experience.

Viewed by me as Goldilocks, Ed G is Pappa Bear, speccing really big, often horizontal, cuts (on live oaks in zone 9, advising cities that want long cycles).
Ryan is Baby Bear, clip clip (on rampant trees in zone 4, short cycles cuz he's in the hood all the time). Maybe extrapolating your big tree work on little trees a tad too much?? And maybe stickershocking clients into thinking about removing good assets? Or is your charisma such that they want you back every year just to bask in your good vibrations?
I'm hoppin into Momma Bear's bed (the middle ground in zone 7), drawing from both extremes.

Who's right? Who can say? Everybody is somewhat, but no one is for every case. "Rules are too Absolute for Mother Nature" quoth the Godfather. Got yer ears on, Dan'l?

"how do you manage site visits to everything you've done? Do you prioritize on a scale of 1-5 when you're done?" Excellent questions. No sane, self-respecting businessperson schedules free site visits, let's stay real about it. When I spec a cycle, I note in my calendar for 1 year later or 1.5 or 3 or whatever it is. Take pics so you can get longterm before and after studies. the calendar prompts me to call; ain't technology wunnerful? If I was good I'd use Jigger or some software to get the client's agreement recorded like a signed commitment, so they can't blow me off and tell me about their leaky roof when the tree's time is up.

Carry on! :)
 
Last edited:
Thanks Ryan, "The tree is about 40 feet tall. Uprights about 2-4 inch diameter." Yup that's why I specced cuts 1-4", thinking that one or two of those codoms could come all the way off, but most would be reduced aka subordinated. Bluntly, I cannot understand postponing that scaffold work for a minute.

So much info on this at Gilman's site, for young trees, paid for by fed grants. I'm putting my tax $ to work by devouring it right now, again. I might spend 20 hours prepping for this 2 hour talk but it's time well spent. This chat is a big part of that prep; thanks to all!
For big trees, Gilman's approach does not work well ime. It's based on extrapolation of his work with little trees. Ryan and dozens of others I've met have a better handle on big old trees, based on experience.

Viewed by me as Goldilocks, Ed G is Pappa Bear, speccing really big, often horizontal, cuts (on live oaks in zone 9, advising cities that want long cycles).
Ryan is Baby Bear, clip clip (on rampant trees in zone 4, short cycles cuz he's in the hood all the time). Maybe extrapolating your big tree work on little trees a tad too much?? And maybe stickershocking clients into thinking about removing good assets? Or is your charisma such that they want you back every year just to bask in your good vibrations?
I'm hoppin into Momma Bear's bed (the middle ground in zone 7), drawing from both extremes.

Who's right? Who can say? Everybody is somewhat, but no one is for every case. "Rules are too Absolute for Mother Nature" quoth the Godfather. Got yer ears on, Dan'l?

"how do you manage site visits to everything you've done? Do you prioritize on a scale of 1-5 when you're done?" Excellent questions. When I spec a cycle, I note in my calendar for 1 year later or 1.5 or 3 or whatever it is. the calendar prompts me to call; ain't technology wunnerful? If I was good I'd use Jigger or some software to get the client's agreement recorded like a signed commitment, so they can't blow me off and tell me about their leaky roof when the tree's time is up.

Carry on! :)

The pruning cycle is key here to. We work for a township that has about a $2500 tree budget/ year so they don't do much. We get calls when people complain to a councillor (not the best tree system). Often I see a tree once maybe twice if I make a real stand for it before removal.
These trees are usually dealing silver maples with large deadwood 8-10", leaning towards houses and half the people are nervous about the tree and the other half of the people are scared to see a 'big' tree get removed. One tree I'll get a pic later today hopefully no bark on half of it (some is still there but not attached) whole dead stems and roots I'm sure. I'm lucky if I get to prune it once in the next 10 years. Many more have cavities with increasing rot etc and so on how does pruning 1/2" branches compute against major defects without a pruning cycle?

Maybe this is a rant for another thread but I thought while you guys are here I'd take advantage.
 
Thanks Ryan, "The tree is about 40 feet tall. Uprights about 2-4 inch diameter." Yup that's why I specced cuts 1-4", thinking that one or two of those codoms could come all the way off, but most would be reduced aka subordinated. Bluntly, I cannot understand postponing that scaffold work for a minute.

So much info on this at Gilman's site, for young trees, paid for by fed grants. I'm putting my tax $ to work by devouring it right now, again. I might spend 20 hours prepping for this 2 hour talk but it's time well spent. This chat is a big part of that prep; thanks to all!
For big trees, Gilman's approach does not work well ime. It's based on extrapolation of his work with little trees. Ryan and dozens of others I've met have a better handle on big old trees, based on experience.

Viewed by me as Goldilocks, Ed G is Pappa Bear, speccing really big, often horizontal, cuts (on live oaks in zone 9, advising cities that want long cycles).
Ryan is Baby Bear, clip clip (on rampant trees in zone 4, short cycles cuz he's in the hood all the time). Maybe extrapolating your big tree work on little trees a tad too much?? And maybe stickershocking clients into thinking about removing good assets? Or is your charisma such that they want you back every year just to bask in your good vibrations?
I'm hoppin into Momma Bear's bed (the middle ground in zone 7), drawing from both extremes.

Who's right? Who can say? Everybody is somewhat, but no one is for every case. "Rules are too Absolute for Mother Nature" quoth the Godfather. Got yer ears on, Dan'l?

"how do you manage site visits to everything you've done? Do you prioritize on a scale of 1-5 when you're done?" Excellent questions. No sane, self-respecting businessperson schedules free site visits, let's stay real about it. When I spec a cycle, I note in my calendar for 1 year later or 1.5 or 3 or whatever it is. Take pics so you can get longterm before and after studies. the calendar prompts me to call; ain't technology wunnerful? If I was good I'd use Jigger or some software to get the client's agreement recorded like a signed commitment, so they can't blow me off and tell me about their leaky roof when the tree's time is up.

Carry on! :)

Hate to say it but for a lot of people a leaky roof will take there tree budget out of the picture that year. So if you show up and they can't pay that leaves you holding the bag.
But I like the cycle reminder a lot like a dentist.
 
Lovin it Daniel.
Guy. Yes I agree I should've done a complete structural. I only have so much time and I feel I accomplished a lot with a little time there. Not a round over. Maybe a round about. Top left alone. Spread 'corrected'. But yes favouring of dominans missed.
Kevin good questions. Gimme some time. I've got answers. Wait just opinions.
 
how old is that guy? some info looks a bit dated?

Daniel what do you see that is "dated"? The world awaits your updates from Planet Murph! Remember we are talking about YOUNG trees at this point--I could fill a book with commentary on his mature tree approach. Do you have his 2013 Structural Pruning book?
 
it's true yes.
Excellent for young trees. Reduce, Remove and retain shoots following previous reductions and or damage. Reduce co dominants. Lots of good use. Avoid poor ratio. These things apply most of the time in small trees and to some extent in big trees but in full grown large trees with spreading decurrent form we need a complex, progressive approach. Especially in trees with no leader or 12 stems. There everywhere. And they need help. Sell it. Sell it. Utilize time and trees response. Great business clean business reduce risk slowly but frequently. Sorry I'm getting cold and upset. Gotta prune a Norway. The sugar beside it can wait. It was done 2 -3 years ago. I don't know.
 
no all pruning is done from rope. buckets are great tools for pruning

Agree.....however, if you will permit me a generalization, I'd say buckets are far more a rarity in a rural ("cottage country") setting. Out of approximately 50 + tree companies advertising in area phone books, I know of three with buckets.
It would be unfortunate to have your ears inadvertently lopped off as a collateral consequence of going in for cataract surgery. In other words, if bark damage resulting in exposed sapwood can be minimized by scheduling pruning operations (involving the climbing of trees to effect such pruning) to late summer / fall / winter months, wouldn't that be more holistic?
 
yeah I'm another few years away from a bucket or spider. On my mind but good point I can work around it. Any opinion opinions on medium bucket. around 50 feet with elbow? Front trees like this one I just came out of five minutes ago.
45-50 foot Norway. Complex w many poor ratios. Top has four stems all close in diameter.
3 hrs.
50-100 cuts 1/4 to 2". All made in outer crown.all but One 2" stem cut damaged and bent.
Dbh 20"
Pruned sides back with Marvin with silky pole from ground. Used every section of silky pole, starting with one extrusion. Used roof of truck. Then climbed tree and did complete top. Sugar can go up. Norway temporarily on pause or slow grow up mode. Arguable yes but stronger at one to one unions. Used handsaw mostly when climbing. Also Marvin on 3 sections. Should have used 2. Oops. 2nd app so applied a thin and reduce. Also straightened out previously created elbows and clumping of shoots. Kind of chose a leader but not really a main goal just yet. Gotta get a pic in light but lower bottom limb is decayed/damaged 4' from trunk. 7 inches at 20"trunk. No risk if fail. Cut it or leave it? It's got enough foliage and stronger due to twice reduced. Removed causes big wound at trunk on tree in stressful small front yard soilbed. Staying risks spread of decay into trunk. At 2" of cut it for sure. At 30" I'd reduce and retain. At 7". I don't know.
 
Thanks ryan; I'm stealing those pics for a Structural Pruning of Young Street Trees for Tree Stewards Zone 7 class I'm doing next week.
Hulk yes compartmentalization is good but on 1-2" cuts it's gonna happen if the angle of the cut is not perfect.
Better a 'bad' 2" cut that a 'good' 4" cut. When cuts are too big, the natural form is lost.
What is a 'natural cut'??
On the 2 big stubs in the white oak, how much farther out were the breaks?
8-12 inches I only cut back enuff to make clean cut
 
Daniel. Great points about temporary cuts. And I've done what your saying but never thought of it exactly like that. Just like that Willow I showed. The nodal cuts that are left can shoot then when you remove it the stem remaining will likely have grown more. This also improves cut to remainder ratio. I also refer to shortening lower limbs as 'tucking' with clients. It is a great compliment to raising as you shed light on living space and garden below.
On the leaving uprights I agree to a certain extent. I'm assuming your not referring to the willow. In most harder trees I agree. If I'm doing a reduction I might just thin the central upright. In a heavily decurrent (spreading) tree I would likely treat it in balance with the rest and reduce it. In a very tall tree with a target I would likely go quite hard on the leader especially if any decay or structure issue. Furthermore it is interesting that the ice here broke more uprights than laterals. Silvers, birches and Siberian elms, all softer species, broke uprights more. The uprights had to bend 180 degrees to meet gravity while the reaching laterals only had to bend 45. What about Limbs that are at 60 degrees to the horizon and are in between, these are high up where wind is strong and leaning slightly.
Guy, thanks for the references to check out.
Kevin, I think the cuts will heal faster if anything. Less area to cover. I do check and haven't seen slowness. Hard to measure or get a feel for though. And yes I do the odd oak, sugars don't generally need reduction but did one sugar reduction/retrenchment, black cherries, lots of locust. All good usually for at least five years. Watch reaction annually where possible. Any way the softer hardwoods. So yes these trees are tough and don't die easily but they do die. And death isn't the point. If you make 1-3 inch cuts to avoid 6-16 inch failure then you save the trees aesthetics and structure. The failure leads to decay and structural vulnerability. Then the risk tree is removed. Toronto silver maples are coming down frequently. Actually after the ice some of the topped and reduced silvers stood up best. Not that topping is good, but it worked in this case until topping issues catch up.
Top five reasons for loss of softer woods
Poor nursery growth, up and roots
Poor pruning and late raising leading to decay.
Lack of thinning or reduction pruning
Storm failure due to the previous three points leading to decay then removal of risk tree
Spent today observing reactions to about 100 I did two seasons ago. Locusts, freemanii, norways and apples. Looking good over all after ice and although my app was thought to be too light, a good percentage sent shoots. The point is if they all sent shoots then too hard. If none sent shoots then too light. I could have gone heavier here and lighter there. But harder overall would have looked ugly and been worse in the long run. Many I just accepted could not be corrected in one app or in a ten year cycle. But they can be IMPROVED enough at a ten year cycle to avoid damaging failure that might also lead to removal. We really can only guess the dose weight. It's great to have a few handfuls of samples of 100 to look back at though. They are going ten years to next dose which is long but out of a hundred likely only a few will suffer in a storm before ten is up. Again, storm depending. Can't make trees bullet proof with ten year cycle and don't need to.
For some species do we need to go every 3-5?
We don't need to go at all. But if we want to feel safER under a Willow or soft maple we can. So assuming a target then I'd say 3 is ideal for an average Willow or Manitoba. Maybe 4 for average silver. But these numbers aren't for a tree way at the back fence. Add 2-3 for that. These numbers are for trees over the roof. Then throw in decay and minus 1-2 years. Or throw in multi stem Norway maple madness. If you want to improve this do it with a heavy app to start and light follow up apps every two or three.
As for pruners I used to use Marvin bull but too heavy. Now I go from reg Marvin to pole saw. Sure I make a lot of handsaw cuts too, but impossible to finish a thorough reduction that is complex due to structure and or decay. With those we are not looking for natural looking we are looking for structural improvements and accepting the trade off of unnatural LOOKING shoots. That's the whole point to this thread . obviously a retrenchment is unnatural looking but a reduction may have to also look odd but more restorable than retrenchment.
It is necessary in trees with higher risks with more target value. And necessary to get pole tools out to reach the ends that remain after you've made the bigger (1.5-2.5 inch) cuts.

Hulk thanks for mentioning diameters. We need to talk about the bigger cuts with diameters because it's hard to see it. Did you leave those two big stubs to shoot and keep them away from the remaining limbs that will take over. I know those storm cuts can be a brain teaser. Especially when your forced to do something big. And I don't think you needed to take more. Time is on your side. Watch reaction and get more next time as you manage reactive shoots as well. Looks like you made a few small (1-2") cuts on that upright as well. I'd also reduce an upright like that. It can still dominate, especially if it's still there after a storm. Now it's more likely to be there enter a storm.

397885c80daf25070291434ba4452b11.jpg
c9ee641ce29fa91ad4863ddf587a9eba.jpg

Daniel. Here's tucking in a very black and white sense. Structural improvement through shaping. Much more of a shear than I would normally apply. I used pruner and 12 foot ladder. Not shears. More detailed structural next time
bc8ac1a1d7d263210b3091de50323e88.jpg
652230869ab1a6ecce8b969fb632e4b1.jpg

Just wanted to show I also do natural looking apps. Still high volume reduced. This will go 4-6 years. No house. Good tree. Willows not only can take heavy app. They laugh at it. Pruners required. Even if your 145 lbs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
That top tree turned out pretty stellar I love that shape ,,
 
Hulk. It's a very relavent point.
Almost all of us want to work for the tree not just the client. And mostly there's a win win for the tree and the client. Too often though, we leave too much range in the options we suggest. But if we leave too little range then the client walks. Other guy cuts the flucking tree in half. Shoot him with a paintball gun. Then put the gun in the trees branches and say 'nice shot tree'. Ok back on track.
How can we balance clients objectives with respect for the tree? How can we balance clients demands with what the tree needs? if it needs at all? Selling nothing is often paid back in time. Is that working for free. It's true Guy. I'm insane to work for free doing assesment. But it's often curiosity driven. And professional development. A term used probably half out of context at schools. I'm buying sandwiches and your inspecting a root collar/flare shoots on the boulevard. I love it. The passion drives us. That's why we can sell better tree care. No pun intended Guy. Great name. Anyway back on flucking track again. That's why we can sell what clients want but JUST DON'T KNOW IT. They want certain things but often don't know their mostly available by better practices. Bmp's even. They don't know there's a root strangulating the trunk and that needs action asap if they want it to keep providing them with benefits. Then point out where it might need reduction for risk mitigation. If at all. But not risk management, if that implies risk to zero. THEN you can suggest crown cleaning if you really want to. Or if deadwooding is necessary. THEN. ..What am I forgetting? Anyway a few things maybe.
Better tree care. We can sell it. People want it. They just don't know tree care. They know they like their trees... Mostly....partly. Oh yeah, u can teach them to like, or even love their trees. and see the benefits of their trees too ...sometimes. It depends.
 
Last edited:

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom