Party Started

Jeff,

How about some pictures of those pines?

BTW, I have been thinking about this a bit and can understand why some might want two guys in a tree in a crane removal. One thing that I thought of was ( and I have never done this yet) maybe the guy rides the hook to the tips of a multi-stem vertically shaped tree and hooks it. Then rappels to the ground and the second guy down lower in the tree cuts it? Is that how it works?

Otherwise, maybe the owner wants to get his climbers some experience with the removal even though they can't do it alone. What do you think? I'm just guessing here but I can see it for those reasons.

But like Tophopper said, it surely would be less taxing no matter what. Necessary? I don't know.
 
No it is not necesary, and yes it is a very good way for a progressing climber to become more proficient. Large multi-stemmed trees it works well, Ive riden the hook up ,set the choker and repelled down once or twice, but will usually just traverse over to next stem or leader, and wait for the boom to return.

Jeff, I assure you when i work, I and those around me are very safe ( more so than most). Share with me exactly how it is a hazard and how it is a hinderance, since you know this as fact.
 
We will occasionally have a climber set chokers off the ball and repel down.
Examples: 1. Dead or hazardous tree, has been determined unsafe to climb and is accessible with the bucket. The tree is to tall or to spread out for the bucket operator to set the chokers. 2. Not accessible with the bucket and has been determined safe to climb. The top, where the climber was tied into, had to be removed to make room for the crane boom to access the lower limbs away from the boom. No place for the climber to tie into (bad rope angle). 3. Lots of small picks due to the boom radius or landing zone. Rather than have the climber go up & down setting and cutting (fatigue). Granted, we don't use for every crane job, but it's a great option.
 
Thanks for the examples Norm. I just remembered a time when I did use two climbers. We were doing a bunch of crane removals for a road widening project. Two of the trees had to be strapped about 20' above the reach of the bucket. I remember having my friend Brian (who was in his gear from hazard pruning others) hook the top and then rappel. He did this on two of the trees. Anyway, thanks for the input. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
If the tree is bucket accessible but to tall I will usually hook into the ball to go up and choke the branch then lower into the bucket and make the cut. I get to remove some trees with the crane tommorrow
 
I know cal osha and I know that anyone riding the ball is fabricating or a cowbowboy climber that knows a crane or owns a crane operator. I mentioned two way communication between the op and the climber. I did not mention 3 way communication. Listen, I just got back fom a big project for Cal-Edison in Lake Arrowhead and had to sit thru classes and I not think, but know what I am talking about. I ran a 12 man crew for several months up there and glad to leave. Now I have half my guys in Fla. doing clean-up. I do not mean to stir anyone up, but I have been reading these posts and I felt the need to respond.
Jeff Lovstrom
 
Jeff- I've heard your line repeated many times over the years but have never actually seen the written law outlawing the act of securing a lifeline to the crane. However, I have seen the ANSI standards covering the means and conditions for tying into a crane ball and I follow those rules when doing so. About half the local crane companies blindly follow your 'illegal' viewpoint and the other half actually read the ANSI standards and allow the climber to (legally) tie in to the ball.

sorry, but I find your 'illegal' viewpoint /forum/images/graemlins/9lame.gif
 
I have in front of me my copy of the Z133.1-2000 standards. On page 10, item 6.7.6- A qualified arborist may be hoisted into position utilizing a crane, provided that he/she is tied in with an arborist climbing line and arborist saddle and secured to a designated anchor point on the boom or line. The following procedures shall be followed when an arborist is to be lifted by a crane.

The items go on to describe safety precautions for the rest of the page. I can't type well so buy your own copy and read it yourself before calling me a liar. Seems like you are the one telling myths.
/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
A couple of months ago there was an article about the work that Steve Chisholm and some others did with CalOSHA about allowing arbos to climb off of a crane. With some caveats, this was perfectly legal. I won't guess at the restrictions, they're in the article. We're hpoing that this is a sign that OSHA is keeping an open mind and ear to industry experts.

There are times when OSHA has successfully enforced citations that are contrary to an industry accepted ANSI standard. Many arbos have paid fines when an inspector enforced the logging standard on them.

Tom
 
I rent a crane from a union contractor with a union operator. I have been working with the same operator for 10 years. When I first started working with him he would not allow me to take a ride with the crane. I showed him the ANSI standards where it said that I could tie in following certain procedures and he took it to his union training rep and since then I have been taking a ride on the line when necessary.
 
Jeff- your blowing a bunch of hot air!
Obviously you havent read everyones post thoroughly. You still have yet to explain to me the safety hazard and hinderance that 2 climbers in a tree create. you mentioned something about comminication beteween the op and climber, but how would that change things?
Your last post hardly makes any sense, so you've been there, and done it all, so what! How about the next time you reply, you do so with some actual substance and fact to back up your babbling?
I can handle someone who disagrees with me, Riggs obviously does, but at least he had some legitmate arguments, all youve done is say how wrong and unsafe things are, and then go on and on about how you know what your talking about , and all the phenominal experience you have. /forum/images/graemlins/9lame.gif
give it a rest would ya?
 
Maybe I didn't quite understand the two man way, I thought two guys were in the tree the whole time. I 've used two guys to cut and choke but with the choke guy going to the ground. I did many trees where the top just had to be the first cut, and there goes your climbing crotch. I guess the bottom line is that the job gets done on time. As far as not riding the ball, that crane is a piece of equipment , rent or own it cost some money and I'm gonna use that piece of equipment for all it's purposes to help get the job done. Riding a ball is less dangerous that a ton limb swinging directly over your head . If you are concerned about riding the ball you need to be educated on the crane .
I think this party is started, beer please.
 
The title of this thread sounds familiar...

Like riggs,the only use I have for a 2nd climber would be for him set the choker on those long, horizontal leads where I don't have a good overhead tie-in. I just chill by the trunk while the other climber rides the ball, sets the choker, and goes to the ground. It doesn't happen often, maybe twice yearly.

Now two climbers on a trim, that's a different story.
 
Rocky!!! Ease up, I mean no offense. I am telling you that in California, according to cal-osha- you cannot legally ride the ball. I agree that riding the ball is best and more productive. In our case in Arrowhead, We were given special permission to ride the ball due to the bark beetle devitation and climber risk. They breathed down on our neck even after the certifications we got. Could it be that it is a state issue? Maybe an insurance issue, or a workers comp. issue? I don't know , But I am not trying to cause contention.
Jeff Lovstrom /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
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