So far it seems like most of these slippage or issues are when the device is in an SRS configuration so I wouldn’t be surprised if the “optional” wrench becomes the required wrench. Either way, it’s a shame between these negative reports for this device and the initial launch of the blackbird or even the buck throttle all exciting devices that looked promising on launch but somewhere along the line in product testing something was overlooked or maybe in manufacturing? Not a dig at anyone involved in any of the devices and it’s not something unique to this industry either it seems more and more the first batch of anything (equipment, parts, vehicles, etc) the first buyers are the first true product testers.
New device from ISC
- Thread starter pcpTR33
- Start date
Right, to me SRT performance is all that matters, otherwise we might as well stick with DRT and a rope prusik. That was the situation 15 years ago, I'm ready to move on.
Obviously it's a real engineering challenge with endless variables, I don't mean to diminish that, and we will probably never achieve perfection. I think the industry is trending in the right direction, and I'm happy to see any and all improvements.
Obviously it's a real engineering challenge with endless variables, I don't mean to diminish that, and we will probably never achieve perfection. I think the industry is trending in the right direction, and I'm happy to see any and all improvements.
The chicanery/zigzag's secret to smooth performance is probably the aggressive RW configuration they use. The less load a device has to deal with the smoother it operates. Normally an aggressive RW setting on a roperunner family device also incurs the penalty of requiring more hand force on the bird/RW to descend but on the chicanery combo the hand force is actually reduced by this at the top of the zig links. My take on it.
ghostice
Been here a while
Looking back on the last few months, I think the AK2 and now the Reflex (and Blackbird etc.) are all large steps forwards that together with new rope designs/ engineering give us way more options than in the past. Look at the refinements on the RR from the original. If the company's have strong recall programs and stand behind their stuff then each new iteration is a step in the right direction even with hiccups now and then. This together with new ideas (like Bill's post about shock cord and mini biner on the AK2 to "stop the flop" in MRS) is really great to behold.
About the spring, maybe more QC on the spring steel is needed but stuff happens. Bigger rope then? All sorts of workarounds abound these days.
Great time to be watching all this. Just my 2 cents though.
On the top link of a rack/zig device the final top mini-RW link always faces the challenge of initiating it's pilot force to cascade the buildup of drag in the zig links chain. We're all familiar with the RW rigid tether rubber bit/spring evolution. Bigger spring than what used to work is usually to overcome crud contamination non-good/low friction articulation that used to occur just fine before the crud buildup. Hence the clean/lubed side issue for mechanicals. On the RW the overcoming gravity to initiate the pilot force was obvious because of it's size. On zigzag and reflex sized top mini-RW the size and weight are much smaller but its the same issue. The magic of zig chain devices is the cascade of load buildup in series where at the in our case bottom the bottom zig link is under near full load tension (reflex its reduced by one rope pinch SRT) while at the top it's small enough to dislodge with your finger. However, unlike a standard rock climbing rack which fixes the "zig" bend angles, in the zig devices the angle results from a balance of lever arm length and initial angle and drag load generated individually at each link. An example of this is the settled under load angle of a RW. If you watch the various vids you can see the under-load angle of the various RW's on the market. You can try this yourself by making a RW with several tether holes at different lever lengths and see the resultant loaded angles. Then you can picture what's going on in the zig type devices more clearly.
Yeah I just pounded a coffee.
The one that's a little less clear to picture is unicender geometry. Subtle zig action. Probably could be considered to be very bollard tight spacing dependent, hence its wear sensitivity. One day maybe I'll get a good look at one. Another concept it may use is high lever gain which means lots of biinding drag per zig angle change. In one of my devices I had huge pinch per load gain. It was like a race car! But sensitive to dimensions. edit - I was having near-freefall descent races with my son
Yeah I just pounded a coffee.
The one that's a little less clear to picture is unicender geometry. Subtle zig action. Probably could be considered to be very bollard tight spacing dependent, hence its wear sensitivity. One day maybe I'll get a good look at one. Another concept it may use is high lever gain which means lots of biinding drag per zig angle change. In one of my devices I had huge pinch per load gain. It was like a race car! But sensitive to dimensions. edit - I was having near-freefall descent races with my son
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False Hemlock
New member
- Location
- Rock in the Ocean
Some notes from first day at work climbing with it exclusively today.
Tree #1 Red Alder, rope used-Samson Voyager dry 11.8 mm (very frequently used rope, some fuzz but not over the top, most of slick coating has roughed out over time). Spur climbing using reflex in choked SRS configuration on ascent- no RW on top of reflex, came down tree on MRS-used the "less optimal" 2nd hole for the termination point. Worked flawlessly with choked SRT configuration, I did notice the rope was twisting around when coming down on MRS during a few points of descent and added extra friction below the device while contacting the swivel attachment. Wasn't a big deal, just had to manage the rope a little better with extra hand to get less friction below. May have been due to chasing hangers in nearby tree (twisting around a lot) and slight twists in rope from moving my tail around frequently during the climb getting it out of drop zones.
Tree #2 Red Alder, Same exact rope Samson Voyager dry 11.8 mm. SRT Ascent rope walking to TIP, working off basal anchor, small transfer over to adjacent tree with a dead top to prune out. No RW used on top of reflex, device worked flawlessly. Descent down after sending dead top from adjacent tree.
Tree #3 Red Alder, rope used-Samson Hyper Climb 11.7 (This rope has been sent through a lot of Douglas-fir pitch, haven't washed/cleaned it as much as I should). I usually will run a ZZ on this rope for that reason. This particular rope has sections where an egregious amount of fresh Doug-fir pitch has semi-permanently become a feature of the rope. Rope walked up SRT with no RW ontop of Reflex, ascent was just fine. Switched from basal anchor to cano-base and began working down the tree in segments for end weight reduction. About 10 feet below my TIP, when descending to work a section-I hit a big patch of pitch that coated the rope 360 degrees around for a 2-3 inch section. The reflex stalled out, top chain link/spring still engaging-but not going anywhere. Noticed the large section of pitch was right where the "rope block" and "pulley sheave" meet to create friction on the interior of the device. Hopefully I'm describing that accurately. Threw my lanyard around the trunk as a precaution, put my foot ascender on and stepped up the rope a bit. Took foot ascender off and tried again to replicate what just happened (lanyard stayed on trunk if anything weird were to occur). I found myself in the same situation, the friction between the "rope block" and the "pulley sheave" below the friction chain were gummed up perfectly (not a fast descent by any means, just slow and steady). Put foot ascender on, walked up rope a few feet again, did a load transfer to entirely be in my lanyard, slacked out main system and put a rope wrench on top of the reflex. Descended through pitch built up section of rope again, this time with the RW on top of reflex and the device worked smoothly-was gliding right over that pitch section. Did the rest of the climb with a RW on top in SRT and it worked flawlessly.
Working a Doug-fir tomorrow extensively. Going to use the reflex and keep putting it to the test of pitchy rope combined with fresh pitch from tree and see how it does, will keep ZZ on hand though-usually my go-to for these trees.
Tree #1 Red Alder, rope used-Samson Voyager dry 11.8 mm (very frequently used rope, some fuzz but not over the top, most of slick coating has roughed out over time). Spur climbing using reflex in choked SRS configuration on ascent- no RW on top of reflex, came down tree on MRS-used the "less optimal" 2nd hole for the termination point. Worked flawlessly with choked SRT configuration, I did notice the rope was twisting around when coming down on MRS during a few points of descent and added extra friction below the device while contacting the swivel attachment. Wasn't a big deal, just had to manage the rope a little better with extra hand to get less friction below. May have been due to chasing hangers in nearby tree (twisting around a lot) and slight twists in rope from moving my tail around frequently during the climb getting it out of drop zones.
Tree #2 Red Alder, Same exact rope Samson Voyager dry 11.8 mm. SRT Ascent rope walking to TIP, working off basal anchor, small transfer over to adjacent tree with a dead top to prune out. No RW used on top of reflex, device worked flawlessly. Descent down after sending dead top from adjacent tree.
Tree #3 Red Alder, rope used-Samson Hyper Climb 11.7 (This rope has been sent through a lot of Douglas-fir pitch, haven't washed/cleaned it as much as I should). I usually will run a ZZ on this rope for that reason. This particular rope has sections where an egregious amount of fresh Doug-fir pitch has semi-permanently become a feature of the rope. Rope walked up SRT with no RW ontop of Reflex, ascent was just fine. Switched from basal anchor to cano-base and began working down the tree in segments for end weight reduction. About 10 feet below my TIP, when descending to work a section-I hit a big patch of pitch that coated the rope 360 degrees around for a 2-3 inch section. The reflex stalled out, top chain link/spring still engaging-but not going anywhere. Noticed the large section of pitch was right where the "rope block" and "pulley sheave" meet to create friction on the interior of the device. Hopefully I'm describing that accurately. Threw my lanyard around the trunk as a precaution, put my foot ascender on and stepped up the rope a bit. Took foot ascender off and tried again to replicate what just happened (lanyard stayed on trunk if anything weird were to occur). I found myself in the same situation, the friction between the "rope block" and the "pulley sheave" below the friction chain were gummed up perfectly (not a fast descent by any means, just slow and steady). Put foot ascender on, walked up rope a few feet again, did a load transfer to entirely be in my lanyard, slacked out main system and put a rope wrench on top of the reflex. Descended through pitch built up section of rope again, this time with the RW on top of reflex and the device worked smoothly-was gliding right over that pitch section. Did the rest of the climb with a RW on top in SRT and it worked flawlessly.
Working a Doug-fir tomorrow extensively. Going to use the reflex and keep putting it to the test of pitchy rope combined with fresh pitch from tree and see how it does, will keep ZZ on hand though-usually my go-to for these trees.
Mick Dempsey!
Participating member
Good review.
“Less optimal second hole” is a moot point
I read somewhere it doesn’t self tend if you use it.
I don’t like self tending, part of the reason I don’t use a mechanical.
“Less optimal second hole” is a moot point
I read somewhere it doesn’t self tend if you use it.
I don’t like self tending, part of the reason I don’t use a mechanical.
ghostice
Been here a while
So based on False Hemlock's post above this is today's experient:
ISC Apex Rope Wrench
Arbsession CaraLINK Black Rope Wrench Tether v2
DMM PerfectO Locksafe Carabiner - Note - shoe goo'd/ glued onto Arbsession Caralink Tether - makes one stiff connection
On Drayer StatX (gee this is a nice rope) this morning.
DMM PerfectO can go into either hole on the Reflex and work but the upper hole with OEM grommet keeps everything standing upright all the more.
This setup is emminently CRIC-able - everything stays put out of each other's way in a 3:1 when yankin' on the way up.
Wow at how smooth this is (with a leather glove on the left hand for ziggy bit control). And I like how the left hand/ leather glove fits nicely between the links and the DMM PerfectO on the way down. Doesn't seem to matter what rope anymore either as much.
I think a standard rig for this summer . . .
Cheers all
Top attachment
Using side attachment
ISC Apex Rope Wrench
Arbsession CaraLINK Black Rope Wrench Tether v2
DMM PerfectO Locksafe Carabiner - Note - shoe goo'd/ glued onto Arbsession Caralink Tether - makes one stiff connection
On Drayer StatX (gee this is a nice rope) this morning.
DMM PerfectO can go into either hole on the Reflex and work but the upper hole with OEM grommet keeps everything standing upright all the more.
This setup is emminently CRIC-able - everything stays put out of each other's way in a 3:1 when yankin' on the way up.
Wow at how smooth this is (with a leather glove on the left hand for ziggy bit control). And I like how the left hand/ leather glove fits nicely between the links and the DMM PerfectO on the way down. Doesn't seem to matter what rope anymore either as much.
I think a standard rig for this summer . . .
Cheers all
Top attachment
Using side attachment
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- Location
- West Coast
11.7mm Tango Ivy. Since then I have also run it on 11.7mm Samson Hyperclimb. I have found on the Hyperclimb I like running it with an Apex wrench and CaraLINK tether since the HC tends to flatten out and not hold its shape as well; the tether helps with a smoother descent.
- Location
- West Coast
The same set up Ghostlike just posted photos of.
False Hemlock
New member
- Location
- Rock in the Ocean
- Location
- West Coast
I have used the Reflex in both configurations for SRS. Yesterday for a removal I went no tether, to cinch off SRS and be able to stay tight to the trunk. It was pouring rain and the alder was super mossy; my usual go-to would be HH or Akimbo, but neither are great in said conditions (the HH does better, but with an old shoulder injury, tending wet Prussik starts to hurt pretty fast). Worked wonderfully, the adjustments were smooth and it took up pretty incremental slack/small adjustments as needed. Being able to transition from MRS for progressing and SRS for working the tree down without having to add a tether was a huge bonus, it just made for a super smooth and efficient transition.
That alone makes it worth it for me: consistency of minute adjustment tending and having a device that handles wet conditions for removals that keeps me close to the spar.
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I think I wanna buy and try a StatX on the reflex. May I just ask what weight range you're in?
ghostice
Been here a while
Around ~82 kg (~180 lbs) w/o harness and the kitchen sink. StatX just fits into the CRIC but I'm not sure if the 11.8's or larger would so for me that's a "rope selection criteria" too. After using StatX last fall on all sorts of jobs I still really like it. It kinda feels to me like a slightly bigger cousin to Courant Squir. I think Drayer hit a sweet spot and they now advertise it for both SRT and MRS - I've used it for both too. Cheers
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moss
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Carlisle, Massachusetts, U.S.
Am I missing something? Has anyone else climbed on a 32 strand cover line SRT mode with the Reflex? Seems too obvious. Super smooth cover line, Reflex top "bird" doesn't engage without a finger nudge. Possible it is not the spring gummed up with pitch, new 24-strand cover lines and 32 strand lines would theoretically require some kind of spring tightness adjustment to accommodate smooth cover lines and new ropes vs already broken in (less spring tension).
Going out on a limb further with no actual data... doesn't adding a wrench above the Reflex make the links even less likely to extend and engage for a 32 strand cover?
-AJ
ghostice
Been here a while
I think it's not just the top "bird" somehow (maybe a stiffer spring here would be nice?). For all the ropes I've tried so far, smoothest descent was when I've switched to a leather glove on the left hand, holding the whole zig zaggy bit and throttling the links with the leather glove. ISC recommends leather gloves and they seem to be right - either Petzl belay gloves or leather work pairs. For me, using a leather glove, the action on the bird became smooth as butter - just like the Petzl zig zag. Works both for rough out leather glove and for smooth cowhide work gloves. My normal rubber faced gloves don't work and I get jerky action, just like ISC says in their instruction booklet. This took a bit of getting used to compared to Zig Zag but once you hit it, the Reflex is now working great. This is what made the biggest difference for me. Again Kudos to ISC Wales.
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flyingmosstreen
Participating member
- Location
- Rochester
Ya I’ve been running blue 32 11.7 with my reflex. Srt. And doubled. No issues. Not running in pitchy trees currently. But I would think the spring activated upper is very important for engaging links.
moss
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Carlisle, Massachusetts, U.S.
Thx for the report! Looks like 32-strand covers are not the issue.
-AJ
Matias
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Butte County
Come again?! WTF are they thinking?!?! I can't even fathon trying to climb in leather roping gloves, and there's no way that anyone would ever think it reasonable for a climber to keep a set on them for descents. The entire reason that we use a different system than most rope access techs is the regular and repeated up and down that we do. I haven't had issues using grippy gloves on the ZZ, so if I struggle to do the same with the Reflex, it may be a total deal breaker for me.
