Neurodiversity thread

[Bart_]

One time I was helped by a guy was just a little something off, couldn't put my finger on it, no ask no tell. Pulling over a back leaning medium ash spar, I set up a static tie plus 2 or 4:1 pull/capture (can't remember exact config) and had a 1 1/4 wrap rope tail around the anchor trunk. My instructions were it was going to be a dynamic method where I would sweat the pull line quickly and while the trunk "bounced" a tiny bit back I would release my sweat pull and he would pull the temporarily loosened tail, sliding the 1 1/4 wrap, capturing the tiny shortening of the pull line as the spar came more vertical, before it bounced back. So we review, get ready, I look over and he's moved to a position with about 3/4 wrap - I stop, tell him, reposition him, start over. Get ready to sweat - he's moved again. Wash rinse repeat 3 or 4 times before he stayed in the correct position and did the actual pull. By the way, I think it came back to me as I was writing this that the reason for the trunk wrap vs prussic or oneway pulley was zero sitback and also keeping some pretension. That was one heavy SOB spar! Almost couldn't move it, and it barely looked off vertical. The pretension just came off the hold line IIRC.

In spending more time with the fellow I now figure he was somewhere on the spectrum. But I was unaware at the time.

I wonder how many people are just a hint on the spectrum and never formally know it. Sometimes referred to as having patience when focusing in on something. Or is that not an attribute? In learning mode. Interesting dialogue here.

ps the oddball hybrid pull rig gave 4x times about 5x sweat or 20:1 total. Pulleys crap out at 10:1 config where its a lot of losses and not achieving 10:1.

 

[southsoundtree]

That could be a learning disability that falls under the large neurodiversity umbrella.

@Bart did you only tell him? Use call and respond? Demo it first?


Monotropism, and other common aspects: https://www.google.com/search?q=mon...n&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#lfId=ChxjMe



I'm really curious how other people handle employees who don't follow procedures and overcomplicate things that are simple.


Do you guys expect that people will beat around the bush, so to speak, and drag a basic questions like "do you know where the truck keys are? from 'no' into a a discussion about where the keys used to be?

I'm learning asking some people for a straight answer to simple-to- me questions, like if they know where the keys are, can be hard to understand as it is, retrieve the info, and get it out of their mouth in the moment, whereas I can comfortable use "whereas" anytime.

I can change from task to task to task quickly and I generally process things very quickly, as needed in tree work, whereas ND people. often are slower to predict the need to change tasks then mrntally shift tasks.

I'm commonly 3-5 steps ahead of whatever I'm doing. I plan ahead on rigging do I'll know what's coming up and if we need to add/ subtract gear or whatnot (e.g., change to knotless rigging, add a tag line, change to a better rigging point/ system, especially if it allows me to handle more of the lowering and landing from within the tree without ground support and communication).








My acceptance of people doing dangerous things is low. I'm just not any good at letting people do things the overall slower, harder, more dangerous, or homeowner/ rookie way. Why risk injuries when we have lots of machines and tools and safe ways?

Procedural memory challenges are coming in ND.


I'm try to make things tangible. We use Sean-units and rope-diameters to do comparative measurements.

It was 5 Sean-units from me to the top of a rotten tree. I only wanted to go high enough to fit the top inside the fence. That was a 20-25' top. I pre-measured that I had 40' in the yard. Ezpz.

SRS re-directions points are described as something like 5-7 rope-diameters from the collar.



I 'Call' plans, ask for the 'Response' (what they think I said). Then I 'call' to see if there are questions or comments. They 'response' however they respond. Rinse and repeat. This is difficult v with people who have processing difficulties.



Sensory sensitivities play a significant role.

My college 'person' (the whole 'gender' component) from 2 years ago said that they probably wouldn't wear a Coolvest, despite being heat-intolerent (heat intolerance and cold tolerance seem to be part of ND for some) because of "sensory stuff".



My last/ this summer college student hire is an engineer. He isn't seeking autistic/ ND.

Once he finally figured out Call and Respond ( Not Call and Call and Call, and try to do what he things and figure the rest as he goes along), he progressed quickly.


Often, people think they're helping by doing what they are used to doing in normal life and trying to help. In tree work, that endangers people, like swinging a log into the climber who set up a solid rigging plan for heavy or long pieces in a very tight drop zone. "Oh! I thought ______ and I wanted to help".














Autism memory access challenges frequently involve difficulties with working memory and episodic recall, particularly retrieving information on demand. Common issues include, struggling with verbal/social info, executive dysfunction, and disorganized retrieval.

"Words" is sometimes said by an autistic in my life when they are having trouble coming up with words. It's at least an understandable message.
Straight A+ student, first chair viola, first chair violin, able to rescue long passages from memory about something from a book when in the right setting.




Two married friends of mine have more than phDs in advanced mathematics. One isn't scoring so low as to have Facial Blindness, but closing in, very siciable and fun. The other could tell you who was in any commercial during the Superbowl and rarely had anything to say.
One of their kids was a pre-teen computer coder and mega smart. The other kid is a 9 y.o., so we'll see.

 

[evo]

So many points to touch down on in a reply.

Consider this Sean, take the self assessment test for yourself if nothing else than to gain some insight but I bet you’d be surprised on the results.

Autism is actually rooted in eugenics, originally differentiated with asbugers. It shifted to low/high functioning, and now has shifted to spectrum.

Spectrum is still misleading, as it invokes an even gradients. A better way to understand it is more along the lines of 3d consientlation. So much so it’s becoming more mainstream to think of a yet unnamed umbrella ‘spectrum’ as it’s found that so many have co-morbidities. Enter AuDHD, if I recall those diagnosed with ASD tend to have 80% co occurrence with adhd. Ditto with dyslexia’s. Additionally ‘gender dysphoria’ or gender ambivalence is exceptionally common too.. Enter in the term ‘neuro divergent’
Australia and Netherlands are some of the leaders in the research in this. Unfortunately ‘we’ are now in the stone age. Also it’s been found that many of these labels actually carry the same genetic traits.
Behaviorally ND folks tend pack up, this is a construct of societal norms. Also ND folks also tend to seek out certain hobbies/professions. Honestly I think you have a little bias (no offense), also read up on the different sub types of ADHD. You are mostly describing the ‘inattentive’ sub types.

Where Kennedy and Dempsey have it right is there are way more diagnosed, not necessarily because there is a higher % (yet there is an environmental favor that can trigger the genetic components). ‘We’ are also gaining a much better understanding. Also it doesn’t fit the Rockefeller education models, soon we will consider that there is a spectrum of learning types and the neuro normative model will erode.

 

[Brando CalPankian]

This has been my hiring experience also. We've focused on making formal curriculum, that way we identify if people are lazy, illiterate, or ignorant pretty quick. With that comes really clear SOP's, so if we find deficiencies we can train it. Not just say, "hey, do this" but literally stop, break out the sheets or tablet, train it. Then test it later.
Is it a lot of effort? Yes. Is it what our world is moving to? Yes. At the end of the day, every fired employee so far has been my fault. I didn't have training set up well enough, I didn't screen to check for work styles and appreciation languages (5 love languages) soon enough. I'd not delved in to what their long term intentions were, who they were as a core person, and if their morals and values aligned with our core vision.
That said, now that we have these structures in place, folks are much more successful. We often forget, as business owners, what other people think. I remember early in my career thinking "what the f+ck am I doing this for?" As I dragged brush for 12 hours a day in the heat. Early climbing was similar. Many thoughts of "this might not be for me" despite never telling anyone. I grappled with those thoughts, and I'm sure it messed with my productivity for a while. It wasn't until I saw the greater industry that I was excited, and then I really took it serious and owned it myself.
Much of what I'm hearing is that. People have their own lives and things happening outside of work that they never express. To us, it seems unfavomable that someone wouldn't communicate clearly their needs, or that they're not full tree tards yet. I see this with David often. That's where the process comes in. It's a choice, and you have to give them the incentive to choose every day, like a marriage or business ownership in general. The difference is, as a business owner, we have much more intrinsic motivation than others. That's why we take the risks in running companies. But our subordinates aren't going to be that way. If they were, they'd own companies. So you have to design a framework that levels the playing field. It's going to be slow, and costly, but it's the only way forward with younger folks. It shows that you care, because they have to choose to buy in before you get anything out of them.

 

[Bart_]

I'm in listening mode. With my guy,, I explained, stood in the exact position holding the rope in example, ready to pull, full demonstration two times and just guided him back to the correct standing spot the other times. I was 15 to 20 feet away facing/watching the guy during the pull. I also loudly said "pull now and keep the tension on the rope" at the correct instant each time.

Carry on

By the way, did I correctly read that spectrum traits are genetic? If so I might know a father-sons combo.

 

[evo]

I'm in listening mode. With my guy,, I explained, stood in the exact position holding the rope in example, ready to pull, full demonstration two times and just guided him back to the correct standing spot the other times. I was 15 to 20 feet away facing/watching the guy during the pull. I also loudly said "pull now and keep the tension on the rope" at the correct instant each time.

Carry on

By the way, did I correctly read that spectrum traits are genetic? If so I might know a father-sons combo.

Yes, ND traits are genetic, well at least kinda sorta. The official stance is its a genetic / environmental developmental learning ‘disability’. So there is a some huge percentage of diagnosed with the genetic components, but not all (at least genes we know of to date).
Australia, Netherlands and a couple other places that are more ‘advanced’ figure the flavor and severity come down to when the mutation occurs in utero for expression. Literally ADHD vs ASD share the same genetic markers, so it’s plausible they are the same thing, or it boils down to when it tweaked in development.
Women are highly under diagnosed for both, which comes down to societal masking/training/expectations.
Remember those with these diagnosis’s typically have to burn twice or more the energy load to make it in this societal role. Once that glass is full the executive function goes out the window and it all falls apart into a shutdown or meltdown.
The major challenge is the recall process from long term memory into short term term working memory. Once the limit of working memory has been reached, something has to get bumped out.

 

[The Green One]

Dang that sounds tough.
I’m AuADHD and dyslexic. My flavor of it is probably why I came into tree work and why I love it. It did take me probably a lot longer than average to get over the hump when green. My work style has always been hanging on the sidelines and seeing what needs to get done to make the system flow fluently.
Granted I was 20 years younger with a babe on the way.
I’ve always been a ‘thrill’ seeker as that is what it takes to make all the noise and ‘fruit fly brain’ to focus. That and pops raised me to work, and to work smart. Part of that training was to turn work into a game and create personal challenges with tasks.
Having strong regiments and routines are key as well.
Maybe when setting up, slow down and pull out all the gear you think will be needed for the task/job. Have this pre-staged on a tarp naming each item as you and the employee pull it out.
Make sure the purpose of the tool is understood. Knowing the all the context of the tool really helps, instead of calling it a porty, call it ‘a porta wrap friction brake for lowering’.
Yes, don’t throw too much out at them, but more of a respectful incremental training. Things like delegation of one specific task at a time. ‘This week you are greasing the chipper’, that is their primary responsibility expected beyond stacking brush.
The following week add in filling the saws and so on.
Give lessons for homework and test them on it. Something like a scrap of rope, and the task it by the end of the month they should be able to tie a bowline. Every other day go over it with them, and teach why a bowline and why it shines in tree work.
The hardest part is to figure out their learning style. Personally, it took me forever to get a bowline down. Literally couldn’t figure it out in Boy Scouts and never got the badge, I had every other fucken knot down pat and it was a huge struggle. Finally it clicked, and came down to always making the hole opposite of what’s needed. I still tie mine by crossing the bitter end and rolling it to make the hole that the rabbit already came out of.
Seriously call and we can chat more. Pretty sure you know how to get a hold of me.

Sometimes being militant and a little melodramatic helps amp things up into ‘hyper focus time’. Instead of ‘drop zone’ call it ‘death zone’. Also if they drink coffee make sure you run through a drive through and buy a cuppa. Not the healthiest thing but remember stimulants give a hyper focus response.

"The hardest part is to figure out their learning style"


10 powerful words EVO.

No two situations are the same either.

Like in coaching, it might take a while to get the mental coin to drop "in between the ears" by explaining the objective a few different ways.

But so worth the investment, walk in their shoes....find communication that is effective and stick to the simple basic fundamentals of our work objectives and goals.

Keep it simple people.

 

[southsoundtree]

I have more posts to read. Got to go to work.




Btw, I scored pretty low overall and very way lower than the threshold for autistic traits to be considered autistic on a Raads-r test taken by the aforementioned someone in my circle who is definitely Audhd and autistic.





Everyone has some amount of ND traits at times, but it is very different that traits strong and widespread enough to merit a diagnosis.



A funny thing is how we typically only see what comes through written text to each other on the internet.

Some people have beers others have bowls, and never is it the experience of someone in person, in a jobsite or around the dinner table.

Never the rarely the interaction of one of us with a person in trouble.









It's crazy the stories that I find out people are sure of about me. Assumptions that are sooo easily dispelled by a basic open-ended question.

 

[evo]

I have more posts to read. Got to go to work.




Btw, I scored pretty low overall and very way lower than the threshold for autistic traits to be considered autistic on a Raads-r test taken by the aforementioned someone in my circle who is definitely Audhd and autistic.





Everyone has some amount of ND traits at times, but it is very different that traits strong and widespread enough to merit a diagnosis.



A funny thing is how we typically only see what comes through written text to each other on the internet.

Some people have beers others have bowls, and never is it the experience of someone in person, in a jobsite or around the dinner table.

Never the rarely the interaction of one of us with a person in trouble.









It's crazy the stories that I find out people are sure of about me. Assumptions that are sooo easily dispelled by a basic open-ended question.

Another thing to consider with ND employees is if they are medicated.
Self or RX.
Personally RX is totally intolerable, but I had huge dips and peaks with it. I do self medicate but that mostly is coffee, that has its own perks and cons.
I also tend to have a functional change after lunch, oddly for the worse.