More things broken

Stephen Moore said:
Would you say the rope shipped with the hook is unsafe to use?
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Not at all. Point is that people may have a tendency to push the Hook harder than it is intended to be used per manufacturer spec, it is not PPE. Thinking that way the hook line doesn’t need to be PPE either. If a climber thinks they want to push their Hook to the limit day-in day-out, might want to look at a line with better performance.
-AJ
 
Brocky said:
Moss, was the end of the Reep sealed by melting when you got it, and did you ever have to milk it to remove excess cover. I'm trying to figure out the lower than expected breaking strength. One possibility is extra cover got trapped in the tested area, causing the core only to take the load. Another possibility is the spot where it broke was compromised during, or after manufacturing.
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I milked it before I sewed the eye. Not because it needed it, standard operating procedure. Nothing over the top, pulled it through my hands a couple of times.
-AJ
 
yoyoman said:
Thought for those blazing ahead with hand sewn eyes.
Sewing machines are powerful and can push thread places your hands will never be able to and in numbers you will never approach. So, if you can't beat them in that game, don't play the game.
First, a stitch (lock stitches use in a machine) is a doubled thread, in other words a doubled rope, double on another rope. Don't think you get twice the load like you do in DmRT, it does not do that. When I have simulated stitches around open pins, it ends up being about half the rated load of the thread.
Second, a machine can make it compact and extremely tight. We like that because that's what a good splice feels like, tight. Pounding thru the rope a machine can span lots of fibers making us feel they are captured.
Think about sewing without a lock stitch, just passing the needle in a circular motion between ropes. ALSO, and this is where I have seen some surprising results, don't try to capture all of the fibers in the ropes. In other words, try that pattern but only with say an 5mm distance down the middle of the eye and don't make it so compact. I can beat any spliced rope in a tug of war by sewing a narrow pattern but a long one. (still not as long as the splice) Note the one I sewed after I unintentionally had one kernmaster break at a stopper knot.)
Hope everything has made some sense, I woke up early and have not yet caffeinated.
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I lock stitch because I don’t want the whole thing to loosen if one part of thread is severed. That said i’ve never had thread wear occur and as i’ve mentioned before, my sewn eyes have outlasted every climbing line, split tail, or saddle bridge i’ve put them on. Also mentioned in other discussions, the only time the cordage gets extremely firm is on the third pass, i’ve only ever broke one needle over the course of making many eyes and that was my fault.
-AJ
 
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DSMc said:
The real problem with hand sewn eyes is not their strength potential but the difficulty in controlling all the variables involved in making them.
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If a person takes care to be consistent in their materials and methods the variables can be limited as much as in splicing or machine sewing.
-AJ
 
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moss said:
Not at all. Point is that people may have a tendency to push the Hook harder than it is intended to be used per manufacturer spec, it is not PPE. Thinking that way the hook line doesn’t need to be PPE either. If a climber thinks they want to push their Hook to the limit day-in day-out, might want to look at a line with better performance.
-AJ
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It’s obviously a work position tool with some other useful side effects. I can’t see anyone exerting the kind of force needed to break that rope simply by traversing from one tree to another. You have to be one fat bastard to do that! So fat that you’d have no business leaving the ground!
My question was more the quality of the rope materials, do they seem sub standard? Would it be prudent to try a new length and see if it meets spec?
 
Stephen Moore said:
It’s obviously a work position tool with some other useful side effects. I can’t see anyone exerting the kind of force needed to break that rope simply by traversing from one tree to another. You have to be one fat bastard to do that! So fat that you’d have no business leaving the ground!
My question was more the quality of the rope materials, do they seem sub standard? Would it be prudent to try a new length and see if it meets spec?
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Doesn't seem substandard, I have a fair amount from the same batch if Richard has the stomach to test break some more ;-) I guess my point is if I expect my lanyard and climb lines to meet a certain spec why wouldn't I want my Hook line to be closer to that same spec? I'll continue using Reep Schnur on my Hook but it's got me thinking. What's good about Reep Schnur is how light and supple it is, throws very well. Nothing is perfect in every way.
-AJ
 
moss said:
I lock stitch because I don’t want the whole thing to loosen if one part of thread is severed. That said i’ve never had thread wear occur and as i’ve mentioned before, my sewn eyes have outlasted every climbing line, split tail, or saddle bridge i’ve put them on. Also mentioned in other discussions, the only time the cordage gets extremely firm is on the third pass, i’ve only ever broke one needle over the course of making many eyes and that was my fault.
-AJ
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I have plenty of stomach to try more, or well, let's just say I have plenty of stomach.
I wish you'd give that method of stitching a try, I wouldn't worry about the threads coming out as you speak and I think there is some real potential there for hand-sewn eyes.
 
moss said:
If a person takes care to be consistent in their materials and methods the variables can be limited as much as in splicing or machine sewing.
-AJ
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Handmade is synonymous with unique, one of a kind objects. Handmade also has a history as an admirable quality. What it doesn't have is a reputation for unerring consistency.
 
DSMc said:
Handmade is synonymous with unique, one of a kind objects. Handmade also has a history as an admirable quality. What it doesn't have is a reputation for unerring consistency.
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Although, some guys make some amazingly nice quality things by hand. There was a guy many years ago that made violins and cellos...
 
DSMc said:
Handmade is synonymous with unique, one of a kind objects. Handmade also has a history as an admirable quality. What it doesn't have is a reputation for unerring consistency.
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And there’s a guy building climbing aids out of billet aluminum with pretty consistent results? And when one is available for sale I’ll order one the same day! Hint hint
 
Why does everything need a machine? There's lots of things that really don't need one or you'd be better off not using one...

Milking cows, picking out ripe melons at the farmers market, wanking, polishing silverware, fly tying, shuffling cards, mixing a drink, catching butterflies, gagging arborists with an old sweat sock, tying your girlfriend to the bed, planting a garden, picking avocados, dragging a body through the woods, washing a motorcycle, dissecting frogs, catching nightcrawlers, texting obscenities to random presidents, cooking burgers on the grill, drinking beer...

I'd try hand sewn eyes, but one of the conditions of my release is that I stay away from sharp, pointy objects.
 
JeffGu said:
Why does everything need a machine? There's lots of things that really don't need one or you'd be better off not using one...

Milking cows, picking out ripe melons at the farmers market, wanking, polishing silverware, fly tying, shuffling cards, mixing a drink, catching butterflies, gagging arborists with an old sweat sock, tying your girlfriend to the bed, planting a garden, picking avocados, dragging a body through the woods, washing a motorcycle, dissecting frogs, catching nightcrawlers, texting obscenities to random presidents, cooking burgers on the grill, drinking beer...

I'd try hand sewn eyes, but one of the conditions of my release is that I stay away from sharp, pointy objects.
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Can you actually hand sew them? You would need a thimble right?
 
JeffGu said:
Why does everything need a machine?...
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Not everyone does. I terminate all my rope ends for attachment by hand in the form of knots. Not the most compact or even the strongest. However, they are strong enough, consistent, easy and fast to make, easy to inspect and removable with no loss of rope.
 
DSMc said:
Handmade is synonymous with unique, one of a kind objects. Handmade also has a history as an admirable quality. What it doesn't have is a reputation for unerring consistency.
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I hear you, maybe we can get Richard to send you a couple of the eyes I sewed for your examination, more than sufficient consistency to achieve the goal of safe PPE gear. There’s reputation and there is reality.
-AJ
 
yoyoman said:
I have plenty of stomach to try more, or well, let's just say I have plenty of stomach.
I wish you'd give that method of stitching a try, I wouldn't worry about the threads coming out as you speak and I think there is some real potential there for hand-sewn eyes.
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Ha, ok i’ll Send some more Reep Schnur.

If anyone can point me to details on the stitching or if the details can be easily explained that would be great. Thinking about it more, a lock stitch allows me to create even tensioning per stitch, with a “whipping” stitch the tension would tend to distribute more resulting in a lower average tension throughout the stitching. My guess anyway. I would rather that the two sides of the cordage not shift under load, that was clearly happening with non locked stitches in your testing.

This is all nearly academic since very few people have the stomach, time, or attention to detail, to hand stitch PPE. I initially did it as an experiment but continued with it because it solved some gear problems for me. I stay with the discussion because I think it is a serious misconception that only things made by machines are safe.

Yeah I know, i’m an f’ing romantic idealist.
-AJ
 
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moss said:
I hear you, maybe we can get Richard to send you a couple of the eyes I sewed for your examination, more than sufficient consistency to achieve the goal of safe PPE gear. There’s reputation and there is reality.
-AJ
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Andrew, I would indeed climb on one of your hand sewn eyes but I still would not randomly trust that method.
 
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