Friction free SRT

Be VERY careful about pursuing the use of the Shunt as a work positioning device in the same way that arbos use a hitch or multicender.

I don't think this is a good use of the Shunt. There are better and safer tools to use.
 
Tom, your right with the advice.

I only use it for certain things, I'm happier with my hitchclimber and prusik for positioning, I just wanted neat trick to ascend fast with little effort.

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I did two climbs today. One Ddrt and one SRT with the rope wrench. I guess I'm not a purist.
But I'll take the time to set a ring and ring fraction saver from the ground if I'm going to Ddrt. It makes a huge difference for me.
SRT, I'm still on the ZK-1. I've tried the Unicender which is the slickest thing I've used so far but it kind of creeps me just a little. I feel more comfy with a hitch. I've also used a pretty sweet prototype of a device from Italy which is a little more compact than the RW. And I'm stoked to try the Roperunner.
I'm not a finely tuned racing car driver kind of climber so eliminating friction to nearly the nth degree so i can go faster isn't going to make a big difference to me.
 
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Yeah, Jimmy I know that there are many ways to skin a cat. But I have noticed lately I have become more hardcore SRT even than before though. Like I would not teach a new climber ddrt first. I wouldn't waste there time or my time. I am not saying that is how everyone should be, but if someone were to ask me how to climb a tree I would teach SRT first and ddrt as another option. I have become completely biased and close minded about the issue. There are places where ddrt is good, like cranes and traversing sometimes, but I personally think ddrt is generally more complicated to do well. Like I could never climb like beddes, cormac, Taylor with me in a ddrt climbing system. I'm just too dumb. But put me SRT there is no place in the tree I can't go.

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I personally wouldn't be comfortable putting an L-climber straight to SRT. I think the rules and basic equipment needed to perform DdRT are simpler and easier to remember for somebody who is new to the feeling of climbing and working in a tree.

What it comes to, is that you can work a tree with nothing more than a saddle, lanyard, climb-line and 1 carabiner, if need be. The same cant be said for SRT. So what ?

I dont believe a new climber should be bombarded with all the options that SRT affords. At least not until they have practiced the basics of safely ascending the tree, TIP's, limb walking/returns on a basic bomb-proof system. Mentally burdening an L-climber, possibly a very nervous one, with too many options and shiny clutter, to me, is a potential time bomb. Base ties, with a chainsaw. Forget it.

Now I love SRT. I couldn't imagine trying to climb/prune some of the big firs we get out here without it. And as much as I see the wastefulness in DdRT at times, it has its merit too. Take the hand-over-hand for example....as much as I despise it, it will get you out of trouble at any point in a tree i.e. returning from a decurrent limb walk. The force multiplier will rescue even a poorly conditioned individual. The same cant be said for SRT. while it maybe twice as quick, returning from the same limbwalk might also require a far more intense burst of strength, and sense of both balance and weight distribution when tending slack. With DdRT, its far easier to keep your bodyweight in the rope to the greater extent. RADS is an option, but, for the reasons stated earlier, for me, too many options and gear too soon.

Its so easy to forget what its like to go back to the beginning. The anxiety, the lack of conditioning, the constant feeling of uncertainty. I have brought lots of climbers through over the years. At the early stages at least, safety and ergonomics do not always go hand in hand.
 
See, when I came back from a limb walk ddrt, I would always grab both lines and pull myself in 1:1, then have to let go of the correct line and tend my slack. I never hauled myself in on the 2:1. It was always a big pain in the butt. And a struggle.

Of course I would teach a new climber ddrt, but I am going on the assumption that the person I am teaching is agile, well balanced, athletic, not afraid if heights. How long would you have a beginner working on a Blake's before you made his/her life easier?
 
Say Kevin, do you think that a brace/attach point just below the primary attach point for the stiff tether on the RW would be benefitial to keep the RW engaged when unweighted? This would also give two different attach points for two "gears" on the grip of the RW.
 
Reg,

YOu present a compelling case. A lot of what you wrote is sound.

On the other hand I believe, and I've taught brand new climbers, that SRT can be learned first. The concerns about complicated systems and considerations are there for DdRT also. I know that it isn't necessary to go point by point one way or the other.

Adding a multicender/MC to the system does make it more complex, I agree. Without an MC a learning climber would be grounded. What happens when only one chainsaw is on the job and it dies? In time, a climber would learn how to climb DdRT...going right back to the simplest system...only a rope, monkey fist it into a tree and tie a three loop bowline and get the job done. Of course, this isn't day-to-day production. This is to assure that the climber has the depth of skill to become a journeyman at some day.

SRT using MC's is just as nuanced and complex as the way many DdRT climber's systems with eye/eye friction hitches, slack tenders, etc.

The long term goal is to have a climber that knows which system to choose. The simplest, cheapest or fastest system may not be the most efficient. If it were a lot of us would do our small tree pruning free-style, we wouldn't wear harnesses in buckets, we'd one-hand chainsaws ALL of the time. It's accepted that doing a task a little slower but with a more ergonomic form will pay off in years to come.

What an exciting time for a climber to get into this profession! So much change!
 
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Reg,

YOu present a compelling case. A lot of what you wrote is sound.

On the other hand I believe, and I've taught brand new climbers, that SRT can be learned first. The concerns about complicated systems and considerations are there for DdRT also. I know that it isn't necessary to go point by point one way or the other.

Adding a multicender/MC to the system does make it more complex, I agree. Without an MC a learning climber would be grounded. What happens when only one chainsaw is on the job and it dies? In time, a climber would learn how to climb DdRT...going right back to the simplest system...only a rope, monkey fist it into a tree and tie a three loop bowline and get the job done. Of course, this isn't day-to-day production. This is to assure that the climber has the depth of skill to become a journeyman at some day.

SRT using MC's is just as nuanced and complex as the way many DdRT climber's systems with eye/eye friction hitches, slack tenders, etc.

The long term goal is to have a climber that knows which system to choose. The simplest, cheapest or fastest system may not be the most efficient. If it were a lot of us would do our small tree pruning free-style, we wouldn't wear harnesses in buckets, we'd one-hand chainsaws ALL of the time. It's accepted that doing a task a little slower but with a more ergonomic form will pay off in years to come.

What an exciting time for a climber to get into this profession! So much change!

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Not really trying to make a case Tom....and I don't doubt for a second that SRT cant be learned first. Its just that I personally don't believe that is the safest way to train a rookie....everything considered.

Ddrt setups can get complicated too, if you choose to make it that way....but, essentially, once you have your TIP, you can safely access and work the canopy of most trees on that one closed system and an lanyard. Your line is taut the whole time, no matter where or what position you're in. For an L-climber, that's as important to me watching as it is to him being up there. You can't do that with SRT to the same effect. Does it matter, I think it does. Whatever increases the overall safety margin, while remaining practical. Start simple, until its second nature, and grow from there. No swapping and changing nor add-ons.

Funny you should mention a monkeys fist....I really wish more young guys knew how to throw a rope. Again, a fundamental skill that is just neglected. I ask people to pass me lines at 20 ft, quick, they can't do it, don't know how. Rigging is no different. Lots of people needing a grcs and impact blocks. Raising stuff up, to put it back down again. They never learned about balance and line angles. Just gimmie a 3 strand, and natural crotches, and I would destroy all those guys in a tree. Because I learned the basics, the art.

As I said earlier, big fan of SRT, but as I've began to realize over the last year or so, it is just not for every one and certainly not every situation. FWIW, I think I can produce what it is Ryan is asking in the original post.
 
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FWIW, I think I can produce what it is Ryan is asking in the original post.

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Hmmm...this sounds like Reg is out in his Skunk Works again! If what else has come out of his Skunk Works is any indication...I can't wait@!
 
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When is someone going to make A good compact mechanical SRT device that we can actually move on without fighting friction? Is it possible? .


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First of all, I'm the kind of person that thinks ANYTHING is possible but...finding ONE system that does everything will probably only happen when we learn how to levitate.

In the meantime, I think what you are looking for and what is being discussed, is to a most part, already out there. Here is the rub, finding what works best as an individual and for each different situation.

The concept of what to teach first, Blakes hitch, Hitch Climber Pulley, SRT etc etc.
If I were an instructor and I had a serious student I would not teach any of that, not even how to tie a bowline, until I have spent, at the very minimum, a whole day teaching HOW AND WHY THINGS WORK, NOT, HOW TO DO THEM.

THAT CONCEPT will get a climber closer to THAT system you are looking for than any catalog.
 
I kind of side with Reg on teaching rope access for tree work the simpler (not necessarily simplest) ways first. And I agree that this will usually mean DdRT, although there are guys who use a very stripped down SRT system, but they are usually extremely fit guys with a lot of climbing experience. But more important than the gear or lack of gear used are the concepts behind why it's being done that way. There are hazards and risks in any set up. A rookie needs to understand what they are. Simpler seems safer to me, especially up a tree. I'm sure some of you could excise that as a quote and argue why I'm full of crap.

For me, simpler is better learning new things to grasp concepts and then add on cool stuff as the basics get mastered. This includes contending with less gear. I have found that things that are easy to understand on the ground sometimes become confusing up the tree the first time. But maybe that's just me.
 
Ryan, I know that much of what you posted was said in jest and meant to be humorous, but everyone needs to take a moment to reflect on just how nice the tools currently available to us are. I could never have imagined climbing with the fluid ease that these new tools allow. I am thrilled with my low-tech, bomb-proof, hitch-dependent, Hitch Hiker. Having control of the degree of friction available for any given situation is exactly what I want. Automatic slack uptake that does not have this control is a pain in the azz when working high in the tree. Every little movement you make sucks you in one direction as the slack is taken up.

Even though my climbing mind has been firmly imprinted by DdRT and I have used it to do whatever was needed, I can not justify its use as a primary climbing system after coming to grips with what SRWP is capable of. It is perfect for placing a climber safely and efficiently in any type of tree. I still do use DdRT in some situations but it is rare and more nostalgic than a true need.

I would absolutely teach a newbie SRWP right from the get-go but would not force them beyond their comfort zone to give them time to develop the needed skills or neglect other important information, like how to climb with just a rope, while doing so. Just the same as teaching DdRT, or any climbing system. We like to pride ourselves in our skills as tree climbers, myself included, but it is not rocket science. Hundreds of climbers enter the world of rope access each year, both industrial and recreational, initially learning on SRT systems and do so successfully.

David
 
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