Friction free SRT

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Ryan, I know that much of what you posted was said in jest and meant to be humorous, but everyone needs to take a moment to reflect on just how nice the tools currently available to us are. I could never have imagined climbing with the fluid ease that these new tools allow. I am thrilled with my low-tech, bomb-proof, hitch-dependent, Hitch Hiker. Having control of the degree of friction available for any given situation is exactly what I want. Automatic slack uptake that does not have this control is a pain in the azz when working high in the tree. Every little movement you make sucks you in one direction as the slack is taken up.

Even though my climbing mind has been firmly imprinted by DdRT and I have used it to do whatever was needed, I can not justify its use as a primary climbing system after coming to grips with what SRWP is capable of. It is perfect for placing a climber safely and efficiently in any type of tree. I still do use DdRT in some situations but it is rare and more nostalgic than a true need.

I would absolutely teach a newbie SRWP right from the get-go but would not force them beyond their comfort zone to give them time to develop the needed skills or neglect other important information, like how to climb with just a rope, while doing so. Just the same as teaching DdRT, or any climbing system. We like to pride ourselves in our skills as tree climbers, myself included, but it is not rocket science. Hundreds of climbers enter the world of rope access each year, both industrial and recreational, initially learning on SRT systems and do so successfully.

David

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Hi David. Would you put a new climber straight on the unicender ?

Would you allow him to use a base tie with a chainsaw ?

True, lot of people enter the rope access world, and successfully so on SRT. But how may of those particular industries perform activities comparable to limbwalking ?
 
To me, it's kind of like teaching a child to do math the long way first, before giving them a calculator.

You need to know the roots of your work first, before you can taste the fruits of that work.

I still will show a new climber DdRT, so that they can see the older way first and then benefit from SRT.
 
I can't really see a problem with frictionless in SRT. I never had a problem with getting sucked up in intentionally. On a lanyard adjuster I want substantial friction and I could not handle the art positioner for even five minutes because it would suck me into whatever i tied into and it also caused me to carry around a long tail all the time. But as a main climbing attachment there is nothing better than not looking at your device while you free climb the tree. You don't have to worry about tending your slack as there never is any! To me it's the ideal. The only problem I have had is untying my canopy tie, letting go and losing the whole rope through the device. That sucks.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B1__8sMS8ZQ


Fairfield started another post on SRT training.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hi David. Would you put a new climber straight on the unicender ?

Would you allow him to use a base tie with a chainsaw ?

True, lot of people enter the rope access world, and successfully so on SRT. But how may of those particular industries perform activities comparable to limbwalking ?

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Reg, as you know, and as I stated above, my preferred SRWP tool is the HH. I believe it has attributes, the easily adjustable friction is just one, that make it the right choice for tree work.

But to answer your questions, not only would I start a new climber on a Unicender, I have, as have others, and with great success. The same goes for the base tie, which by the way, is my preferred tie in method mainly because it offers increased safety in many situations.

The dangers you perceive do not come from the use of these two things but their misuse. A Unicender is not a Hitchclimber so it can not be used like one. A new climber understands this easily but experienced climbers not so much. A base tie has a load bearing downward leg. You know this so take steps to insure it is not within the cutting zone, there are many ways to do this. This is not a base tie specific caution. It is a tenant that MUST be adhered to with any rope technique.

Your belief that DdRT is somehow intrinsically safer and can "get you out of trouble" is not backed up by the statistics I have read. Just because it is a system you have become comfortable with, does not make it mistake proof. Tree climbing requires aptitude, skill and a thorough understanding in exactly what it is you are doing at any given moment.

David
 
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To me, it's kind of like teaching a child to do math the long way first, before giving them a calculator.

You need to know the roots of your work first, before you can taste the fruits of that work.

I still will show a new climber DdRT, so that they can see the older way first and then benefit from SRT.

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Chris, I share your love of history and will freely share all I know with anyone interested. I can't imagine withholding potentially helpful knowledge.
But life is not a Michener novel and we can't start each lesson with, "in the beginning". Having a good understanding on the use and history of DdRT will not make someone a better or safer SRWP climber.

David
 
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To me, it's kind of like teaching a child to do math the long way first, before giving them a calculator.

You need to know the roots of your work first, before you can taste the fruits of that work.

I still will show a new climber DdRT, so that they can see the older way first and then benefit from SRT.

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Chris, I share your love of history and will freely share all I know with anyone interested. I can't imagine withholding potentially helpful knowledge.
But life is not a Michener novel and we can't start each lesson with, "in the beginning". Having a good understanding on the use and history of DdRT will not make someone a better or safer SRWP climber.

David

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I'm late to join this discussion, probably should've checked the dates before writing but just wanted to irrefutably state that doubled rope knowledge will make the journey into tree climbing Better Easier Safer Faster and first time climbers that are lead solely into SRTWP are likely to lose something from the aforementioned capitalised lettering.
Why does it have to be one or the other? A new climber can grasp 3 knot system design and application in a few hours - and the same for rope wrench, hitch climber, base tie and ring and ring. It's the throwlining that gets them!
No one will learn production technique in a few days either be it on 3 knot, split tail or rope wrench. I wish for salty days of old and Seven Years Under the Mast because that is what it truly takes.
And Reg, why do you want to destroy tree climbers? <font color="red"> </font>
 
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I'm late to join this discussion, probably should've checked the dates before writing but just wanted to irrefutably state that doubled rope knowledge will make the journey into tree climbing Better Easier Safer Faster and first time climbers that are lead solely into SRTWP are likely to lose something from the aforementioned capitalised lettering.

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I want to clarify something before things get out of hand. If you read what you quoted of my last post carefully, I did not say to not teach DdRT or that having the knowledge would not be useful. Just that having those things, in and by themselves, will not give someone the things they need to safely and efficiently work in an SRWP system.

In fact, in the learning process of DdRT, strength and skills must be developed within a specific muscle group and posture, focused on the use of the upper body. So you spend a great deal of time teaching your student this system. They develop strength and muscle memory based on this system. NOW you take them over and show them another system that focuses on an entirely different muscle group and posture, that they now have to reteach their body in order to use this new system properly.

How does this help them?

David
 
"Having a good understanding on the use and history of DdRT will make someone a better and safer SRWP climber" because of the system variety that ensues.

When I left the UK two years ago I introduced myself as a Single Line Climber and like a lot of people climbed off of trunk anchors/belays or choked top anchors. My sudden exposure to teaching (in Japan) made me analyse my own methods and I began to see options that I had over-looked in the UK, that of ddrt incorporation to my 'single line system'.
So I'm no longer a single rope climber and I didn't become a ddrt climber either, just someone that goes to work in trees with ropes and options. I kinda see what Chris means, that ddrt is at the root but these days and with tools like the Rope Wrench, Access and Work Positioning systems and the anchoring of them are so blurred that it seems anachronistic to keep calling them anything at all.

Which muscle groups and for what area of climbing? Crown movement on 1:1 or 2:1 are fairly similar until you get into some positions like the one Reg expressed where a burst of movement is needed but even in that situation the climber has many options. And isn't access always done with the lower muscles?
 
I like that, it's all just tree climbing. I suppose it means that if I teach someone to climb a tree, it will be the way that I know how to climb. I can't really teach them anything other than that.
 
When you teach you want them to have the broadest grasp of ideas in order for them to begin thinking for themselves. Copying is a certainty but hopefully only for a while!
 
Was thinking about the limb walking in the order of training. Limb walking is sort of the peak of climbing ability. It takes a long time to be a skilled limbwalker. I would much rather begin teaching avoiding limb walking as much as possible with the safe and judicious selection of multiple redirect before learning how to walk out a limb at a steep rope angle. As they get more comfortable in the tree and the use of redirects, they can start messing around with horizontal climbing. Which as a principle I try to avoid. Slack and swings suck. SSS
 
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Hi David. Would you put a new climber straight on the unicender ?

Would you allow him to use a base tie with a chainsaw ?

True, lot of people enter the rope access world, and successfully so on SRT. But how may of those particular industries perform activities comparable to limbwalking ?

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Reg, as you know, and as I stated above, my preferred SRWP tool is the HH. I believe it has attributes, the easily adjustable friction is just one, that make it the right choice for tree work.
I agree David, Pauls a great designer. Very conscientious
But to answer your questions, not only would I start a new climber on a Unicender, I have, as have others, and with great success. The same goes for the base tie, which by the way, is my preferred tie in method mainly because it offers increased safety in many situations. Pretty sure you've stated in the past that you would not recommend the unicender to a new climber. I could probably find it if you want, might be on AT. Maybe you've since changed your mind. Thats ok too.

Please explain the many situations where a base tie is safer than an isolated limb ?

The dangers you perceive do not come from the use of these two things but their misuse. Good point. And foreseeable misuse is surely and lawfully the obligation of be-it a designer or supervisor. A risk assessment. For example, in my mind, a new climber using a chainsaw with a base-tie is an unnecessary risk, and would be hard to defend in the aftermath of an accident. A Unicender is not a Hitchclimber so it can not be used like one. A new climber understands this easily but experienced climbers not so much. A base tie has a load bearing downward leg. You know this so take steps to insure it is not within the cutting zone, there are many ways to do this. This is not a base tie specific caution. It is a tenant that MUST be adhered to with any rope technique.

Your belief that DdRT is somehow intrinsically safer and can "get you out of trouble" is not backed up by the statistics I have read. Just because it is a system you have become comfortable with, does not make it mistake proof. Tree climbing requires aptitude, skill and a thorough understanding in exactly what it is you are doing at any given moment. I can only go off my own experience David, of working with hundreds of guys over the years.... not so much statistics of what others have written somewhere. I dont get how a more intricate, temperamental system of any sort could possibly be judged safer or easier to memorize than a simpler one. For that reason, I would feel way more comfortable turning my back on a new climber, or bunch of climbers as can often be the case, on Ddrt, than using SRT.


The mucle group thing you spoke of in your later post, I dont relate to either. It took me two trees to make the switch to SRT, small ones. My legs are a little stronger now than what they were, but still skinny. Essentially, you're still hauling yourself back from limb-walks on both systems. Same amount of twisting and turning. More leg work on vertical accents SRT, but no big thing.

David

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I've found that there are two ways for me to teach climbing.

My first preference is on the job with me there working alongside our very near the learning climber. They would have been working as a groundie underneath me for a while and told to pay attention to what I'm doing. They would be charged with second guessing me at all times. I stop during a climb...and give them a pop quiz.

Example: I'm in this place and I need to move over there and do that. How do I do it? They lay out a plan then I do the climb. How close was their solution to mine? Over time they learn by paying attention.

They would have learned proper hand and chainsaw use the same way. ON the ground by observation. I observe them too. At some time they get to step up from a handsaw to a chainsaw. Eventually when they start climbing it's the same thing. Use pole tools and handsaw to get proficient then they get chainsaw. Step by step progression.

along the way they're taught the limitations of each tool or system. If they can't handle or respect the use of cutting tools on the ground I am NOT going to put them in a tree on a rope...no matter what system.

this is a very close at hand way of teaching. Poor practices or technique is changed immediately and brought back on course. they start pruning from the ground using all of the tools in 'crabapples'. then they harness up and prune the same sort of tree but they're on rope and two steps from the ground. I can be within 6' of them at all times to teach. then they graduate to larger trees.

The other teaching method is lecture/demo like at workshops. Mass teaching to a crowd. In this case I have an outline to cover and I lay out the limitations and cautions for each step of the way. Then, it's the climber's responsibility to practice and learn the fine details. I start and end every slide show or presentation with my contact email and phone number as well as a link to TreeBuzz.com It's in their best interest to learn the fine details.

I would always start a new climber on SRT. The end result is to get them climbing and earning me money. The learning curve and ease of use is better with SRT I feel. When they have gotten at ease and are leaning back onto their rope to work I would then start them on learning DdRT. In the end, they would know when and where to use one or the other.

Fill in the blank...with the best choice.
 
I think knowing both and being proficient in both Is very important. I try to train my guys in Ddrt first but give them srt right off the bat for accent. I want them to explore the systems that best suit the giving situation and be schooled in all aspects of climbing.

Yesterday is a prime example of my climbing and how I try to use the right tool for the right job. I was subbing for a Company in another city that has a lot of storm damage. My first tree was a willow with broken tops and stubs. I had to go to the top and get some stubs first. So I elected to frog walk up and transfer over to a higher union DDRT .It was was the highest union I could get with a throw ball and a lot easier to move my TIP with a 2nd line pre tied with my pulley saver. The next tree was a tiny Live oak with one broken limb so I Just ddrt up like 8' and got it. Next tree was a willow I had to go to the tip top to get hangers and stubs. I frog walked srt to the top and transferred over to my rig and work the tree SRWP. My next climb was a large broken willow top and one one the climbers already had a SRT accent line installed. I got out my rope wrench and put in in place of the croll , frog walked up half way and started to work SRWP. On to the next job did pruning from the ground and it started to get wet. I had a small thick Red Oak to remove a cracked limb. I was having throw ball troubles so I elected to just use the alternate lanyard technique and install a pulley saver DDRT one I got to my tip. My last climb of the day was a big wide Red oak with a lot of damage and hard to reach. It was raining pretty good at this point so I didnt want to work the tree SRT with a basil tie , because I knew it would really damage my tip . I set a srt line and frog walked up and transferred over to my pulley saver. I actually had to tie in with my tall at one point as well because the tree was so slick and hard to get out to the ends(had been lions tailed before). That was my day yesterday climbed several trees and used several different option and each I think the best for the trees and situations I encountered.
 
I work in a similar style to you Jimmy as I'm sure many who are reading do as well, the more versatile the more efficient. I am new to climbing so I do not always make the best choice of which system to use when which can decrease efficiency. This is why rec climbing has been beneficial to me. Figuring out what works when while I'm not on the clock. I have seen people limit themselves greatly by adhering to one system or another, lots of pride and prejudice. I agree it's all tree climbing!

One question Jimmy-
I don't understand why you did not want to SRWP the tree because it was wet?
Thanks
 
It would damage the cambium. The bark is paper thin up top on some RED oaks and when there are wet it takes nothing to do damage. I felt lot of bouncing and moving back in forth with a basal tie working srt would have done a lot more damage then my pulley saver.
 
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