Friction free SRT

[ QUOTE ]
I've found that there are two ways for me to teach climbing.

My first preference is on the job with me there working alongside our very near the learning climber. They would have been working as a groundie underneath me for a while and told to pay attention to what I'm doing. They would be charged with second guessing me at all times. I stop during a climb...and give them a pop quiz.

Example: I'm in this place and I need to move over there and do that. How do I do it? They lay out a plan then I do the climb. How close was their solution to mine? Over time they learn by paying attention.

They would have learned proper hand and chainsaw use the same way. ON the ground by observation. I observe them too. At some time they get to step up from a handsaw to a chainsaw. Eventually when they start climbing it's the same thing. Use pole tools and handsaw to get proficient then they get chainsaw. Step by step progression.

along the way they're taught the limitations of each tool or system. If they can't handle or respect the use of cutting tools on the ground I am NOT going to put them in a tree on a rope...no matter what system.

this is a very close at hand way of teaching. Poor practices or technique is changed immediately and brought back on course. they start pruning from the ground using all of the tools in 'crabapples'. then they harness up and prune the same sort of tree but they're on rope and two steps from the ground. I can be within 6' of them at all times to teach. then they graduate to larger trees.

The other teaching method is lecture/demo like at workshops. Mass teaching to a crowd. In this case I have an outline to cover and I lay out the limitations and cautions for each step of the way. Then, it's the climber's responsibility to practice and learn the fine details. I start and end every slide show or presentation with my contact email and phone number as well as a link to TreeBuzz.com It's in their best interest to learn the fine details.

I would always start a new climber on SRT. The end result is to get them climbing and earning me money. The learning curve and ease of use is better with SRT I feel. When they have gotten at ease and are leaning back onto their rope to work I would then start them on learning DdRT. In the end, they would know when and where to use one or the other.

Fill in the blank...with the best choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tom, I have little doubt that both yourself and David are solid, authoritative teachers in the field. However, most training organizations that Im aware of, offer workshops that take complete groups strangers for a week or less and send them out into the world as climber. I'd be interested here of any that teach SRT as the primary means of working a tree ?

Trust me, it is not in my best interests to undermine the merits of SRT on any level....but such as the change of direction this particular thread has taken, its hard not to pursue....as its of quite a serious nature really.

Just give me some examples where it extends a greater margin of safety than Ddrt ?

From what I can see, the base tie could aid the potential energy absorption in a fall/arrest situation....and in some cases a rescue situation. Having said that, in both cases thats after the event. Start with the very essence of what it is, even - a fixed line, man-loaded at one point, with sharp cutting instruments being used around it v a doubled line sharing the same load ? Throw a novice climber into that equation and....

Again, this is not about ergonomics....and even then both techniques offer different advantages at times.

I dont know if you've ever watched Joe Harris' almost serene display of climbing a 'large' tree using Ddrt, for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB0KZKADMTY

....a fine example of how this 'big bad friction' is really all in the planning. And furthermore, by its nature, almost programs the climber to choose less impeded, acute line angles between TIP and target limb....again, for the better I would think. Which ever way I look at it, I keep getting the same conclusion. Tell me why Im wrong.

If anyones getting prickly or offended, please dont be, Its nothing personal, just discussion, same as if it were face to face. Thanks
 
[ QUOTE ]
I am a complete addict to climbing without friction. Hitches to me seem so archaic and annoying. Tying it this way and that way and tend it and all of that nonsense and in about 10 minutes I bail out of the tree, go get my Lockjack or my Zig Zag and away I go, friction free.

Rig- too clunky and RADS is too slow,

Rope Wrench- has to be used with a hitch and I don't like how it is this clunky thing.

Hitchhiker- the name says it all. Might as well be called the hitch tender for all the fiddling it requires. Heavy.

Unicender- just don't like the ergonomics of the device and how clunky it is.

When is someone going to make a good compact mechanical SRT device that we can actually move on without fighting friction? Is it possible? I'm seeing a good option being a Hitchhiker/ zig zag hybrid or a modified Lockjack body and clutch.

Kevin, what's up with that Roperunner? You might be able to convert me to this SRT nonsense if it is truly amazing. Hubert! You have made so many amazing friction free devices! Come save SRT climbers and show the Americans how it's done!

[/ QUOTE ]
LJ or SJ and wrench is pretty darn good.

Long ascent and descent - SRT
DRt most everwhere else except when too much
friction is being applied from the ropes crossing over many leads/limbs

Many times SRT is actually DRt in reverse becasue of the necessity to
double back on the single line to return from limb walk or ascend.

Drt is easier when going vertical when one hand can capture progress thru the
split tail and the other arm and legs are free to climb

SRt is always easier when the rope is your only choice for progress and forces you to make use of
foot, sternal and handled ascending tools where double rope makes it easier to hand over hand.

Srt forces you to utilize your feet/legs more.

SRt for chunking down also, it is easier than drt because you simply choke your tip plus with an easy retrieval
You can have truck gear lowed for pulling and 4 wheeling and you have a tuck geared high for quick starts and speed
in the end we want it all and can't have it.
In terms of new climbers drt is sensical only for the reason that it splits the load.

Mechanical advantage always wins when input power is limited.

In terms of friction free srt, its been figured out and the only reason why it isn't here is the acceptance vs cost to market.
take for example a friction free throwbag, Luke is the only North American dealer to have the acumen
 
[ QUOTE ]
Great discussion, Reg. Right now I'm a bit weary, after watching '12 Years a Slave'. when I get recharged I'll weigh in again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah no rush Tom. Work is slowing down so I have more time to post, thats all.
 
To me sharp objects next to ropes is more of a common sense issue or a complacency worry. I don't think novices would be more or less likely to error than a seasoned expert. More dangerous would be a seasoned climber used to ddrt making the switch to SRT i would think. If you start out SRT, a nervous rookie would be very unlikely to cut their line. When I started out I was given an 020 to prune a small green ash. I survived. But I would personally not give a newbie a chainsaw in a tree until they were fully proficient running a chainsaw on the ground. Not that handsaws are not dangerous,
 
[ QUOTE ]
To me sharp objects next to ropes is more of a common sense issue or a complacency worry. I don't think novices would be more or less likely to error than a seasoned expert. More dangerous would be a seasoned climber used to ddrt making the switch to SRT i would think. If you start out SRT, a nervous rookie would be very unlikely to cut their line. When I started out I was given an 020 to prune a small green ash. I survived. But I would personally not give a newbie a chainsaw in a tree until they were fully proficient running a chainsaw on the ground. Not that handsaws are not dangerous,

[/ QUOTE ]

Its all common sense Kevin, in one form or another. But my point again goes back to foreseeable misuse. Accountability. A base tie in that sense, makes less sense. A good slash from a handsaw on an SRT loaded line, base tie or not, theres a good chance you're going down mate.
 
Yes but what Im saying is that i don't think that's a rookie mistake to make. Or a rookie would be more inclined to cut their line than a seasoned climber making the switch. It is a danger but a very obvious one and lots of experience is not going to make it more obvious or less dangerous.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Pretty sure you've stated in the past that you would not recommend the unicender to a new climber. I could probably find it if you want, might be on AT. Maybe you've since changed your mind. Thats ok too.

Please explain the many situations where a base tie is safer than an isolated limb ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Reg, Before I answer these two questions I want to correct your statement in a later post that I am a trainer. I don't consider myself one, nor have I ever. I have trained climbers, but I'm just a tree climber.

Going back through old posts is fun. If you go back a little further you will find me arguing with Tom and Kevin about the merits of DdRT and why the heck should I bother with SRWP? I think I could even pull up a few of your old posts in the same vein. I try not to stagnate. So yes, things change. I entered the SRWP arena with a bit of a jaundiced eye and, unlike you, it took me more than two trees. Not the actual climbing, but of mastering the potential within this system that would allow it to work for me, not in spite of me. I really, really wanted to climb doubled rope on a single line. Until you recognize what SRWP is capable of and then utilize that, you will not be reaping its full benefits.

You seem to really be focused on the dangers of base ties. Why is that? Please don't tell me you run your rope straight up the tree and straight back down again and proceed to do all your work within the cutting zone. Like I stated. I use base tie for the VAST majority of what I do. There is rarely a time that I cannot place the base line out of the work zone. There are so many ways to do this, it would take a book to describe them all. Not going to write a book.

A few key points of why I choose a base tie:
1) You are tying your line, anchor point, at the base; i.e., the strongest part of the tree.
2) The line is redirected to your PSP at a minimum. There are many suspension points below that provide backup in the case of PSP failure.
3) Using the natural biomechanics of the tree, I am often able to utilize more than one suspension point; thus, mitigating the theoretical doubling force at the PSP.
4) Speed. OK, so that is not a safety thing but it is true.
5) Amount of line in the system. This increases the system's load absorbing abilities, which in turn softens any potential impact loads on the redirect points and the climber.
6) The initial redirect points can be set higher through load-sharing than is advisable when you are isolating a single component/limb.

This is excluding the already well-discussed potential for ground assisted rescue.

David
 
[ QUOTE ]
Yes but what Im saying is that i don't think that's a rookie mistake to make. Or a rookie would be more inclined to cut their line than a seasoned climber making the switch. It is a danger but a very obvious one and lots of experience is not going to make it more obvious or less dangerous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I always thought it be normal to make less mistakes with experience. At least, that's how its been for me.

Seemingly obvious or not, people have and do accidentally cut their climb lines. And its not like accidentally cutting your saw lanyard or rigging line even. You could fall, and die. The stakes don't get much higher, especially when it someone else's life on the line. None essential risk, totally. Why take it ?

Tell me why SRT is the safer option ?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pretty sure you've stated in the past that you would not recommend the unicender to a new climber. I could probably find it if you want, might be on AT. Maybe you've since changed your mind. Thats ok too.

Please explain the many situations where a base tie is safer than an isolated limb ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Reg, Before I answer these two questions I want to correct your statement in a later post that I am a trainer. I don't consider myself one, nor have I ever. I have trained climbers, but I'm just a tree climber.

Going back through old posts is fun. If you go back a little further you will find me arguing with Tom and Kevin about the merits of DdRT and why the heck should I bother with SRWP? I think I could even pull up a few of your old posts in the same vein. I try not to stagnate. So yes, things change. I entered the SRWP arena with a bit of a jaundiced eye and, unlike you, it took me more than two trees. Not the actual climbing, but of mastering the potential within this system that would allow it to work for me, not in spite of me. I really, really wanted to climb doubled rope on a single line. Until you recognize what SRWP is capable of and then utilize that, you will not be reaping its full benefits.

You seem to really be focused on the dangers of base ties. Why is that? Please don't tell me you run your rope straight up the tree and straight back down again and proceed to do all your work within the cutting zone. Like I stated. I use base tie for the VAST majority of what I do. There is rarely a time that I cannot place the base line out of the work zone. There are so many ways to do this, it would take a book to describe them all. Not going to write a book.

A few key points of why I choose a base tie:
1) You are tying your line, anchor point, at the base; i.e., the strongest part of the tree.
2) The line is redirected to your PSP at a minimum. There are many suspension points below that provide backup in the case of PSP failure.
3) Using the natural biomechanics of the tree, I am often able to utilize more than one suspension point; thus, mitigating the theoretical doubling force at the PSP.
4) Speed. OK, so that is not a safety thing but it is true.
5) Amount of line in the system. This increases the system's load absorbing abilities, which in turn softens any potential impact loads on the redirect points and the climber.
6) The initial redirect points can be set higher through load-sharing than is advisable when you are isolating a single component/limb.

This is excluding the already well-discussed potential for ground assisted rescue.

David

[/ QUOTE ]

David, you just basically told how you justify a base tie for your self, which is fine....but apart from the shock absorbing and rescue stuff that I already mentioned. You have not answered why it is safer. For example, to state that the base is the strongest part of the tree so to somehow justify a base tie makes no sense to me, as opposed to where the line redirects at the top of the tree.

You asked me why im against base ties etc....of course Im not. Its just that from a teaching capacity, theres a safer way. I have some appalling habits in a tree.....dangerous beyond anything mentioned in this thread....all related to production. But I sure as hell would't be teaching it to others....especially novices.
 
Reg, I did list safety features of a base tie. For some reason you are not recognizing that. My repeating them over and over again is not going to change that end. So I suggest look at it again and then think about it.

David
 
First of all I'll state my opinion is a bit bias because I think reg is the man, and I have yet to make the switch to srt for even ascent let alone work positioning. These arguments on safety for beginners is compelling to me for I would like to start srt ascent. Base tie, isolated psp, I understand it all and feel they both have merit. As a newby to srt working a base tie would sketch me out but I would rock it for ascent as it would speed set up time. The one thing that reg stated "Well, I always thought it be normal to make less mistakes with experience. At least, that's how its been for me." For myself I personally worry about this the most. Regardless of srt, srwpt, ddrt, flying the bucket or riding the ball, with experience comes complacency.
 
[ QUOTE ]
David, you just basically told how you justify a base tie for your self, which is fine....but apart from the shock absorbing and rescue stuff that I already mentioned. You have not answered why it is safer. For example, to state that the base is the strongest part of the tree so to somehow justify a base tie makes no sense to me, as opposed to where the line redirects at the top of the tree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Such a basic point should not need further explaining. Also that a novice would make no more mistakes than a seasoned pro. SRT blinders, evidently. Back to watching the Twilight Zone on YouTube(Dennis Hopper in 'He's Alive').
 
[ QUOTE ]


Reg, I did list safety features of a base tie. For some reason you are not recognizing that. My repeating them over and over again is not going to change that end. So I suggest look at it again and then think about it.

David

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok David.

Point 1: I already stated, almost irrelevant.

Point 2: Has some merrit s a fail-safe. How many times have you had your TIP fail using Ddrt ?

Point 3: Brilliant. Makes SrT safer, within the scope of SrT.

Point 4: no relevance to what we're discussing.
.
Point 5: I already pointed that before you in an earlier post

Point 6: Load sharing/guying, whatever, is not exclusive to SRT by any means. Its easy, in fact.

If this is the case to suggest SRT is safer than Dbrt for learners, then, its pretty unconvincing in my opinion.

I'd expected to be shot down in flames by now and apologizing. I'll give it up. Sorry to get so far off the original topic Ryan.
 
there are novice errors, and there are brain fart errors. I feel no less or more likely to cut my rope now than I did when I first started. That's something I figured out that I don't want to do without experience. I however will never again attempt to cut a huge log with no face cut as I did when I was a novice with no experience as that nearly killed me. I don't need experience to know that I shouldn't cut my rope. I do need experience to understand how to read a tree.

Im not going to argue that SRT is safer. But I definitely dont think it is more dangerous than climbing on a taught line. And I know for certain that it is more productive and therefore anyone I am teaching I am probably going to want to be productive and worth the time I put into training. I'm not talking about training stupid people either. I don't think I would bother with that scenario.
 
[ QUOTE ]
...If anyones getting prickly or offended, please dont be, Its nothing personal, just discussion, same as if it were face to face. Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Reg, you're sounding kind of tightly wound in that last post. Please remember your above statement. Like I said, I am just a simple climber, not a trainer. I'll give it one more try but I'm not seeing a happy ending here.

Point 1) Relevance - strength of anchor. Pretty hard to argue against not having the strongest, most easily inspected. SRT is defined as a rope with one end fixed. How can that not be relevant?

Point 2) How many times a TIP in DdRT failed is not relevant to the question you asked on the merits of an SRT base tie, though there have been many injuries and deaths in DdRT from TIP failures. What is relevant is that there is redundancy available if needed. Again, why would you not want this available to you?

Point 3) Yes, and very hard to achieve with a top tie.

Point 4) Trying for a little levity here to lighten the mood. Guess that didn't work.

Point 5) Who says what when is irrelevant to the fact that it is a safety point.

Point 6) Yes, load sharing and using the biomechanics of the tree is often used by riggers. It works. With it, a climber can achieve a higher SP. More accidents occur with low angles of attachment. More stability is achieved through higher angles of attachment. Sounds relevant, in a safety sort of way.


The physics behind these points are not my opinion but true and are an answer to the question you asked of why do I believe a base tie has added safety features compared to top tie, or some such. I am not suggesting you or anyone else utilize this system if you are not comfortable with it. Just answering questions.
smile.gif


David
 
I have known one climber who cut his line. He is an experienced climber. Luckily ok but with some injuries he will carry with him. I might venture to say i am probably am more likely to cut my line now then when I started because I work faster now, and am not as diligent at bucking in every single time. I have developed some bad habits and I also find myself distracted by outside thoughts. When I started I was full on present all the time because I was scared. Now, I have to call myself back from la la land from time to time.
 
The guy who taught me to climb once told me that the first few years any new climber is hypersensitive while working in a tree. I know that I sure was, it took me a good few years until my first (and only) in tree accident, a hand saw cut on my knuckle that caught a tendon. The ironic thing was that I was just getting over the fear of trusting my gear, and the tree. It happens the moment you let your guard down in this biz... I still feel like a new climber, I haven't spent many hours in a saddle and I'm just now venturing into srtwp. Doing base ties is pretty familiar to me since I've climbed Ddrt off of a false crotch and to cut that side of the line is the same effect.
The way I was taught was to keep the climbing system simple as possible, and that has stuck. I have always been curious about SRT but never really considered it until the wrench came out due to the simplicity of it. Now there are other options other than the wrench. With today's Srt there is no switch over from ascent to decent. One can make srt as simple or complex as they want, using the wrench with a rope walker setup isn't very gear intensive, simple, and gives you the panic bail out option.
Any teacher should be open to the student, there are some that will have different backgrounds, and can adapt to gear and it's safe use in different ways.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...If anyones getting prickly or offended, please dont be, Its nothing personal, just discussion, same as if it were face to face. Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Reg, you're sounding kind of tightly wound in that last post. Please remember your above statement. Like I said, I am just a simple climber, not a trainer. I'll give it one more try but I'm not seeing a happy ending here.

Point 1) Relevance - strength of anchor. Pretty hard to argue against not having the strongest, most easily inspected. SRT is defined as a rope with one end fixed. How can that not be relevant?

Point 2) How many times a TIP in DdRT failed is not relevant to the question you asked on the merits of an SRT base tie, though there have been many injuries and deaths in DdRT from TIP failures. What is relevant is that there is redundancy available if needed. Again, why would you not want this available to you?

Point 3) Yes, and very hard to achieve with a top tie.

Point 4) Trying for a little levity here to lighten the mood. Guess that didn't work.

Point 5) Who says what when is irrelevant to the fact that it is a safety point.

Point 6) Yes, load sharing and using the biomechanics of the tree is often used by riggers. It works. With it, a climber can achieve a higher SP. More accidents occur with low angles of attachment. More stability is achieved through higher angles of attachment. Sounds relevant, in a safety sort of way.


The physics behind these points are not my opinion but true and are an answer to the question you asked of why do I believe a base tie has added safety features compared to top tie, or some such. I am not suggesting you or anyone else utilize this system if you are not comfortable with it. Just answering questions.
smile.gif


David

[/ QUOTE ]

Not prickly at all David. Sorry if any responses seem abrupt. Just short of time and attention span looking after my kid. Wife be home soon also, so I have to think fast.

1: your base tie is only as strong as the redirects above, factoring in the potential doubling effect....so in that sense a direct TIP is safer on average. That was my point

2: It is relevant that i asked why you judged this method to be safer that Ddrt as previously implied, not purely within the merit within SRT itelf. Furthermore a similar failsafe system is easily incorporate Ddrt where it seems worthwhile.

3: There is no doubling effect using Ddrt, so no need to mitigate anything.

4: Try harder maybe

5: I never said it wasn't relevant, just that I pointed it out in an earlier post, in your favor.

6: It is relevant, agreed, but not exclusive to SRT. As I said already.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom