drop a 75' tree in a 50' LZ

Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

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In the old days, I'd go up and take the top 25' out...
Now I pretty much will stand in the hooks and drop the top 50'.. Less up and down... faster.. trust the falling cuts..
More fun..

How 'bout you?

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Yup. Work smarter not harder; we figure that out as we get older, eh?
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

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There was probably a chance to use a double tie in to position yourself over the ash. Hard to tell from the perspective shown.

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Thinking about this possibility, it occurs to me that if there is a high TIP in the vicinity, the second rope doesn't have to be an independent TIP, it can be a side rope that swings you into position that comes from up and to the side, horizontally, or even below horizontal, bearing in mind that lateral forces on the anchor trees.


You could use it with some of the safety benefits a highline with a lot less set-up. I imagine that the climber would be able to use a break-away lanyard set-up. This would work if a person didn't need to get to the top of the tree, as in Daniel's example, without the difficulty of finding two good highline trees in the right locations relative to the hazard tree.

The winching anchor point can be adjusted by using a "floating anchor point" if a suitable anchor is not in the right location.


As well, a low-strung highline set-up can be set up off of a strong neighboring tree and the ground, at an angle rather than horizontal.
 

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Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

Hmmmm, good ideas Sean. Long and short of it is taking the risk out of the equation through some initial set up shows a high degree of professionalism.

I did this with a 70' willow with a twisting split through the base of the tree. double tie in set me nicely inline with the stem and thus able to drop the top out and work down the stem without ever setting my weight on the willow. My lanyard allowed me to keep me positioned exactly where I needed to be to make my cuts.

The client, a forestry consultant was thoroughly impressed with our techniques. I was never in the position to feel "scared".

Sometimes we need to really step back and find a way to make sure we're safe without question.
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

I quote Daniel in the video.\

"The object today is to take this tree down and stay alive"

And right after he made the cut and was pushing on the top

"I'm a little scared right now"

Daniel, just be safe. Take the extra time to set your rope's in other tree's etc.... I'm not trying to bust your balls, or question your experience or expertise. I don't know the tree's in your area, or the job site. If the tree was that rotted out, and it did appear to have the death shimmy thing going on. Why not just simply take the time, to set it up in a way where you wouldnt be saying these things in your video?
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

I don't know why you would take a chance like that with your experience.
Part of that top could have broken out and came back on you when it made contact with that other top as it was coming over.
 

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Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

Though others have rightfully expessed a concern for dead ash trees and specifically their root systems, being extremely unstable, I agree with you, Kevin, that the only real danger here was the possability of something coming back at me after the top hit the oak. Again, before I went up the tree I was hoping to turn the top into the hole between the surrounding trees.

When I got into the tree, it was much easier to judge the lean and it was clear that there was no way to turn it that far.. I had to re-evaluate, and go with plan B.. Let it hit the oak.. Again, only from that perspective could I judge how it was going to hit and what the chances were of something coming back at me.. It was clear to me that the chances were pretty close to 0, the the ash being as dead as it was and the oak so far away.. Still a little scary though...

I have 10s of thousands of hours of work experience cutting trees. This has been my only profession, and I AM getting up there. It is only with that kind of experience combined with a 99 percentile apptitude in 3 dimensional abstract thinking that I could make that call and know I was going to be alright.

Not saying that I don't make mistakes.. MORE importantly I do my best to learn from them. as a matter of fact any time ........ ANY TIME.... something does not go down as planned, wether it causes a mishap or not, I will work my brain to figure out why things happpened as they did.. This gives me a perspective that a 25-30 year old cannot have in this business (with very few exceptions)...
Maybe its not a good idea to show this stuff to the general public, as it going undoubtedly to be taken out of context. That is a matter for another debate.

I AM happy to have this conversationa here at treebuzz, and hope that others can learn from it, even if that learning is don't do what I do....
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

I'm guessing one handing the chainsaw! Or some other safety concern that he didn't want us to see.
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

The censor is because Dan for some reason doesn't want us to see that he fell that top without an undercut of any kind. Seems like a great idea to me.
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

If it's true that he didn't put a lead in it that might have something to do with why it didn't hit the hole that he wanted it to. I don't know though, I'm only 30 and I could be wrong, maybe there's a reason you wouldn't put a lead in a top of that size? I can't think of one. I'm only going on here-say here. I don't think I have ever been right 99% of the time. I really don't want to give any one a hard time on this site, but the only thing that anyone can say with certainty is that they don't know everything. It's true that we learn from what we have found works in the past. Unfortunately, I think a lot of us, most of us, have habits that have flown under the radar that haven't caused us injury...yet.
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

if thats the case. let it be known. How can I learn anything from that video when I cant even see what is going on?
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

I love my job and couldn't imagine doing anything else, but if I felt like "my main object was to stay alive", it def wouldn't be the thing for me. If the boss man actually threw that job at me, and that was the ONLY way to get it down, I probably would have turned it down. It just wouldn't be worth it to me.

I think making that statement in a video puts a bad name out for our industry. The general public needs to know and understand that tree work can be done safely and efficiently when performed by trained and skilled professionals. There's already too many examples of improper and dangerous tree work in neighborhoods everyday, so why put a video out there for the world to see that's so improper that it has to be censored? Too bad the camera person had to see it. Maybe it was the customer? Wonder what they thought when you told em your object was to stay alive?
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

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See all the spars? There's about 120 of them. Every one of those trees were 150-190'. Every one took minimum two cuts. Do it safely every time or you might not get a chance try again, ever.

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I was just re-reading this thread on a rainy morning and took the time to really digest a lot of the very intelligent and safety minded points made here.. This is a great conversation.

One point on the above post.. when you are dealing with HUGE trees, you can't count on the same principles that work reliably in smaller trees..

If a climber completely understands and properly executes falling techniques appropriate for the situation, he should, for the most part, be able to safely use those techniques to fall large tops, relative to falling height.. I believe that the examples of injuries cited in this thread, resulted from the lack of undersatnding or good execution.

And that is good.. Let them be a warning to climbers not to try it, if they don't understand or are not able to execute... For example... are you comfortable and confident in making a plunge cut while standing in hooks?

One notable exception is when dealing with huge trees. The forces that get generated in dropping huge trees can overwhelm even the best made hinge, or any defects in the trunk or roots, especially given the leverage involved.. When there is no escape route, and those kinds of forces involved, you can't trust your life to it.

So 190' tree is much different than dealing with a 75' tree..
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

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One point on the above post.. when you are dealing with HUGE trees, you can't count on the same principles that work reliably in smaller trees..



And that is good.. Let them be a warning to climbers not to try it, if they don't understand or are not able to execute... For example... are you comfortable and confident in making a plunge cut while standing in hooks?

One notable exception is when dealing with huge trees. The forces that get generated in dropping huge trees can overwhelm even the best made hinge, or any defects in the trunk or roots, especially given the leverage involved.. When there is no escape route, and those kinds of forces involved, you can't trust your life to it.

So 190' tree is much different than dealing with a 75' tree..

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Link to GB's huge redwood topping at 150'.
http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=18910


If people have seen this series of pictures, its possible to see how much reaction force is generated from the top falling forward, creating and equal and opposite counter-force opposite the lay. Looks like the top moves the trunk almost enough to smash GB, or at least his springboard platform against the neighboring tree. Looks like it moves it at least 5', if not 7', 8' or more.

This massive force that this healthy looking redwood withstood from a large top, which pushed the top of the remaining trunk back Many feet, is demonstrative of the force.

This issue is not only proper reading of the tree, and proper placement of felling cuts, but whether or not the tree, overall, can withstand the massive forces of a huge top drop.

Taking Huge tops in compromised/ dead/ poorly-rooted trees is going to be hugely difference that in live, healthy, strongly-rooted trees.

If a large top-drop is done on a tree that is on a sub-surface rock shelf or hardpan soil layer, the root system may have been enough to grow and withstand the blowing of the wind in the grove, snow loading of winters, etc, but not the huge reactive force of a top drop. It may have died from the stress of insufficient resources due to some unknown factors such as a sub-par root system, (possibly from a secondary disease/ insect, I'm Guessing that EAB will affect stressed trees much more than healthy trees. Was there some presumed cause of death on this dead ash, Daniel?).


I'm going to say that I'm not sure if the forces/ variables of large tree versus small tree are a lot different, or if its just a matter of proportions (overall), whereas large top versus small top, we can see reactive forces are not the same. There will be more issues of side lean in relation to bar pinching and such, as I think that .404 chain is all bigger that this variable, and resulting kerf, gets. The chain/ kerf doesn't grow proportionally to the size of tree.
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

the ratio of holding wood to force is going to be a lot smaller in in monster trees... the hinge width has to stay small enough to allow the top to go without barber chairing, or putting too much pull on the tree, and allow the fibers of the hinge to bend. You just can't leave a wide enough hinge to make up for the added forces in huge trees.

There is not a lot of science that i know of related to these kinds of forces, BUT I bet if there were the numbers would be astounding..


And BTW... good reminder on that Gerry B poster... I remember seeing that poster the first time I ever walked into a saw shop. AWESOME...
perhaps all the naysayers here should copy Gerry with their admonitions

I'll see about putting together a short montage of recent work to further show off my "awe-inspiring talent and experience".. :)
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

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the ratio of holding wood to force is going to be a lot smaller in in monster trees... the hinge width has to stay small enough to allow the top to go without barber chairing, or putting too much pull on the tree, and allow the fibers of the hinge to bend. You just can't leave a wide enough hinge to make up for the added forces in huge trees.




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Daniel,

You make a good point here, with a concrete example of the limitations involved.

This seems to support the idea that taking huge tops from relatively low in the tree is a bad idea, no?

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There is not a lot of science that i know of related to these kinds of forces, BUT I bet if there were the numbers would be astounding..

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There seems to be more data on rigging forces, where a dynamometer (I think) is attached to a block and/ or anchor point.

I haven't seen anything about forces on hinges, pushback forces on the spar, etc. Probably WAY harder to test.




So...what was with the Censored???
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

Yeah, what's up with the censor thing? You clearly didn't notch it, it's easy to tell because a notch didn't fall from the tree. You should change the title on Youtube to something like.."Tree faller kills a bunch of baby squirrels".

Edited because I was grumpy.
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

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One point on the above post.. when you are dealing with HUGE trees, you can't count on the same principles that work reliably in smaller trees..



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Why?


And why are you avoiding the numerous questions about the 'censored' box?
 
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