DIY lanyard for recreational tree climbing --- static or dynamic rope?

[moss]

I don't mean to distract you from the post you're writing about arresting falls with a dynamic rope, but i would like to give you some feedback on this one

1) I think a rock climber wouldn't expect you to show them how to do it with their gear and technique. But i'm sure they would appreciate it if you took that into account (to the extent that you're aware of it), and at the very least taught them the reality of what tree-climbing is in contrast with rock-climbing, and not just like, "forget everything you know about climbing." (Not that this is what you said, but it could be uncharitably interpreted like that.)

2) I'm not a rock climber, but i have more exposure and access to rock climbers than tree climbers, so my intuitions are indeed biased in that direction --- i think this might be the case for more people coming to you regardless of their knowledge of vertical techniques.

3) I've been asking rock climbers how they would climb trees, and the vast majority of them answer that they wouldn't climb trees --- i then counter, "whatever, but how would you do it if you were to climb a tree?," to which they once again reply, "i wouldn't climb trees."

Perhaps rock climbers are just bad at hypothetical reasoning, but the fact of the matter is that i haven't got a good idea of how rock climbers would expect their equipment and technique to work on a tree from the ones i know.

I hope this helps your approach to teaching recreational tree-climbing to people coming from rock-climbing!

Indeed I work with a lot of people with rock climbing backgrounds. They are often the most difficult students. Clean slate is much easier to deal with, tree climbing (for a rock climber) really is "forget everything you know". Just about anyway. Many tree climbers are also rock climbers, after they transition to understanding tree climbing concepts they have little trouble separating the two disciplines.

Here's a link to the thread I started in the Rec Forum:
http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threa...pe-in-tree-climbing-is-a-terrible-idea.38568/

-AJ

 

[Stephen Moore]

On a derailing side note why are forestry snaps allowed if they call for safety snaps to be triple action?

Because they are automatic lockers that is the only real requirement. But remember this... your safety is always YOUR RESPONSIBILITY! I don’t give a shit about what organizations say if it doesn’t work for me. Quote me on that too!

 

[Stephen Moore]

Stephen, i think i understand the underlying concept of what you're talking about here, but how would the rope run if it's static and all the slack is between the climber and the anchor?[/

Stephen, i think i understand the underlying concept of what you're talking about here, but how would the rope run if it's static and all the slack is between the climber and the anchor?

are you climbing with

I presume you're talking about something like this, but with a lanyard around the branch you're walking on in addition to the top rope?

I haven't tried it out in the field yet, but it might be one of the coolest ideas from arborism i've come across so far!

yes that’s the basics, but when he went out to the skinny end of the branch he could throw a lanyard under it and suck it up tight effectively pulling the branch up. This unweights the branch so you can go further out.
To answer your question about taking falls in trees. Generally a bad idea for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is hitting a branch below you! But generally in trees most of us don’t accumulate slack to prevent falls from happening. Plus we are connected twice at any given time- ideally!? Another side effect of angles on ropes in a tree is the pendulum, it can be useful to get to another place but it can also slam you extremely hard into the tree. You can be impaled by a broken branch! Be very careful! That said- as a rec climber you may want to have some fun doing tyroleans/ traverses from tree to tree. Rigging some huge pendulums between trees or maybe a zip line or two? Or some tree camping? The possibilities are many. Just make sure if you plan to do these more exciting activities to have a friend or two with you and an emergency plan in place. And always best to have cell comms just in case!

 

[Stephen Moore]

Thanks for the input! Just to clarify --- by the 'anchors' here, do you mean the branches i'd be tying in to, or the ropes/slings involved in their installation --- or both?

And what exactly do you mean by a 'static fall' --- is it a fall factor > 0 fall on a static line, or do you mean just hanging from an already (nearly) stretched static line?

Your last sentence made me a bit confused, because it seems like the forces involved on a static fall would be smaller than those on a "dynamic fall" if you meant the former. So, i'm guessing you meant the former --- i.e., the scenario to be avoided?

Thanks once again!

A fall is always dynamic! The gear you fall on is also always dynamic, however some gear is far less dynamic than others. In a fall scenario it is preferable to have a dynamic system to avoid impact damage. In tree ( work ) not necessarily recreational ) typically less dynamic ropes are used to decrease stretch and increase control.
In another question you asked about which was better - basal or top TIP ? Either may be appropriate depending on several factors. Both can be recovered from the ground. A typical ground recoverable system requires twice the length of rope than the height of the climb. The use of an alpine butterfly and a locking biner to reduce friction and unnecessary rope wear is tied at the halfway point in the rope and cinched around the TIP. You simply pull down the other side when done.

 

[WaitakKauri]

To the question of basil/base anchor or not: do be aware that the force exerted on the psp (primary support point) at the top will be twice (2x) for a base/basil anchor.

[This is in a theoretical no friction scenario.]

This is worth knowing and understanding. As your knowledge progresses on equipment and technique, I'd suggest also understanding forces and vectors. Tree climbing is awesome and the whole '3D' climbing and instant up/down/swings/limb walks/re-directs/traversing is just awesome and a whole lot safer when you understand what is happening.

 

[WaitakKauri]

@moss i love checking out gear at a rock/alpine shop when they ask me about tree climbing. They are always quite fascinated and very jealous that there can be so little traveling to get to a great climb spot.

 

[Stephen Moore]

@moss i love checking out gear at a rock/alpine shop when they ask me about tree climbing. They are always quite fascinated and very jealous that there can be so little traveling to get to a great climb spot.

Yep thats an added bonus! Plus.. not many rock climbers get paid to do it!

 

[colb]

Thanks for the input! Just to clarify --- by the 'anchors' here, do you mean the branches i'd be tying in to, or the ropes/slings involved in their installation --- or both?

And what exactly do you mean by a 'static fall' --- is it a fall factor > 0 fall on a static line, or do you mean just hanging from an already (nearly) stretched static line?

Your last sentence made me a bit confused, because it seems like the forces involved on a static fall would be smaller than those on a "dynamic fall" if you meant the former. So, i'm guessing you meant the former --- i.e., the scenario to be avoided?

Thanks once again!

I was referring to branches as being the anchors.

I may have poorly worded my last sentence. To state it in plain language, if you climb higher than your anchor point, you need to anchor in to larger diameter branches than if you stay below your anchor point. As I'm sure you know, the forces generated during a fall quickly grow larger with distance above the anchor point in a non-linear fashion, if one were to graph it. If you plan to fall twenty feet, best be attached to really big wood...

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Perhaps not in general usage,
but in rigging/roping/climbing/rescue etc. i think anchor in the trusty anchor bombproof sense is appropriate
>>stronger than 100x potential force (or something)
>>trusted as impervious >>force loadings are irrelevant to it's strength.
i think '(overhead) support anchor' is most appropriate.
.
In understanding tree biology you would want main support anchor(s) that didn't have codom shear lines.
>>A proper tree joint is more of an embedded ball-socket forces bearing unilaterally thru whole parent.
>>codom makes at least 2 halves with shear line in between, the support shape is not round any more to each,
>>in fact support shape for each branch more towards strip hinge
>>with the weighted axis across the narrow axis of support of codom
Worse is more than 1 codom in same area, as the tree can't possibly maximize support in all directions at once, the further from monolith we take the model
.
Best strength support is monolith single stem >> can maximize strength column strength
>>next best strength is proper ball joint, binding and knitting into main column; taking advantage of it's strength>>virtually monolith
After that have house divided of codoms, then probably least trustworthy healthy branch would be from (especially recent) adventitious buds from topping, kinda suction cupped to side, not deeply rooted ball joints, nor even codoms.
.
Favour thicker than own wrist in good oak; at proper joint.
>>or take higehr friction stem as support and branch as stop

 

[Chaplain242]

As far as dynamic lanyards go they are generally used when working off static lines connected to your ascenders, so if for any reason the rope shifts/resets or you take a drop on the static line it can absorb some of the shock and not break your harnesss, bridge, lanyard etc as well as limiting the shock you are exposed to...

 

[Stephen Moore]

As far as dynamic lanyards go they are generally used when working off static lines connected to your ascenders, so if for any reason the rope shifts/resets or you take a drop on the static line it can absorb some of the shock and not break your harnesss, bridge, lanyard etc as well as limiting the shock you are exposed to...

True dynamic ( shock ) lanyards are a single use item. You pitch them in the bin after they deploy. Typically used in industrial fall protection rigging, such as ship painting, roofing, etc. They have no use in tree work.