DIY lanyard for recreational tree climbing --- static or dynamic rope?

JeffGu said:
Umm.. I'm having a little trouble with your math, bro... draw me a picture. You're 42 feet off the ground, with multiple anchors and 200' of rope in the system between you and your belay... are you climbing horizontally?
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Well no perhaps I didn’t explain that right. If your last piece of gear in a crack is 20 feet behind you and you are 40 feet of the deck... so two times the distance to your last pro... add stretch and you are going to smoke the deck. Even if you have 3 or 4 feet of give you are still eating the deck.
The belay feeds you rope as you lead, by giving slack through his belay device. In the day that was an Air Traffic Control. Most guys used them. They were small and light and they worked just fine.
 
Stephen Moore said:
Well no perhaps I didn’t explain that right. If your last piece of gear in a crack is 20 feet behind you and you are 40 feet of the deck... so two times the distance to your last pro... add stretch and you are going to smoke the deck. Even if you have 3 or 4 feet of give you are still eating the deck.
The belay feeds you rope as you lead, by giving slack through his belay device. In the day that was an Air Traffic Control. Most guys used them. They were small and light and they worked just fine.
Click to expand...
I’d draw it out for you but I know you know what I know. You know?
 
I guess what I'm having trouble with is the 200' of dynamic rope. If you're on ascent, you aren't going to have 200' of rope in the system if you're 40' off deck. And I am asuming you would know better than to do your descent on a dynamic rope. If you fall from 40' the rope angle through your last anchor is going to keep most of the friction on your end of the rope... as the load on the rope increases, even if your belay weighs less than you do, she can get you back to the ground because of where the friction in the system is... the delay in her being yanked up the wall is that friction plus rope stretch, and will be at its peak as she's being lifted. All that mitigation is going to seriously limit the stretch, the distance you fall, the shock load, and the velocity you reach.

I think the math is going to be a little more complicated than your example, is all I'm saying... I think that to get the max stretch out of the rope, you're going to have to climb a 240' wall, set a top rope anchor and take a flying leap. Let me know what the last words out of your mouth are, should you give this a try. I'm thinking... "Oooohhhhh ssshhhhiiiiiiiiittttttt!!!!!" or something similar.
 
JeffGu said:
I guess what I'm having trouble with is the 200' of dynamic rope. If you're on ascent, you aren't going to have 200' of rope in the system if you're 40' off deck. And I am asuming you would know better than to do your descent on a dynamic rope. If you fall from 40' the rope angle through your last anchor is going to keep most of the friction on your end of the rope... as the load on the rope increases, even if your belay weighs less than you do, she can get you back to the ground because of where the friction in the system is... the delay in her being yanked up the wall is that friction plus rope stretch, and will be at its peak as she's being lifted. All that mitigation is going to seriously limit the stretch, the distance you fall, the shock load, and the velocity you reach.

I think the math is going to be a little more complicated than your example, is all I'm saying... I think that to get the max stretch out of the rope, you're going to have to climb a 240' wall, set a top rope anchor and take a flying leap. Let me know what the last words out of your mouth are, should you give this a try. I'm thinking... "Oooohhhhh ssshhhhiiiiiiiiittttttt!!!!!" or something similar.
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I took a header that was at least 80’ meaning 40’ above my last piece of pro- does that make sense? I came to the end of the line and felt a significant amount of stretch- and warm liquid running down my legs- does that make sense? I know that my fat ass caused a lot of stretch in my climbing line. If that was a static line I may well have broken my back, torn out my anchor or ripped apart my harness. Yes a 200’ hank of rope gets payed out from the belay there would be 80’ plus of rope payed out with 120’ still at the belay layed back and forth in 10 to 15’ bights across his tie in.
 
I'm a former rock climber and current professional and rec tree climber. In your situation I would try rock climbing lines with the highest elongation for fall arrest, and thickest diameter for ease of handling in the hand. You may benefit from a motion- style lanyard. You should have a plan for what to do if you fall to a place where there are no foot holds or hand holds, and possibly just empty space because a tree climber does not necessarily "fall into the wall." Also, think about how you would deal with falling past a very large branch and then climbing back over it with the rope pressed very hard against the branch. Lastly, just going to concur with previous statements that your anchors for dynamic falls need to be of larger diameter than they would be for non-dynamic falls.
 
Other info for this curious flexible support device we call Rope: 1000pounds caught by 10feet of elastic length in system is more elastic when 7k vs. 10k ropes used of exactly same material/manufacture
.
As stated if multiple support lines to same load is lower percentage of the line tensile so line is 'stiffer' less elastic to load.
>>by extension in rigging and using2/1 support for load, can be placing less support load (2x vs. 1.5x nominal load weight ) statically; but dynamic hits can have MORE impact; even on split supports to 2/1 rigged load!
>>spread supports also require increase in line tension, but decreasing line tension as load lowers away from supports
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BUT, all this is only a base part of the forgiveness in total system if
a>incident AND
b>most comfortable,confident, fluid positioning;
commonly with Tie In Twice philosophy, mostly w/climbing line as upper support and lanyard as anti sway
>>but can also position in a V between.
.
Every slip, extension, friction etc. in rope/knots/hitch choice/belt add to the forgiveness potential forgiveness in system as dampening ballast against fall forces/impacts.
Let alone minimizing chance of, then impact of diligently daily.
Also quick enough sensing and reaction like a cat to take advantage of the 1/8th second before inertia fully rolls into things ; and it feels like that ol'bitch gravity doesn't know you are a free agent yet; ready for the taking!!
Always furthermore plot your what-if's as you go and be ready to deploy strategy like ready martial artist flowing rite into pre-wired/scripted action.
.
With good gear, hitting that gear and fine tuning; listening to what it whispers, where it finds your personal needs/weakpoints is the next step. Wear your brain bucket as part of those what-ifs!
 
In essence, the primary difference between lead climbing a wall and climbing in a tree is the that wall climbing generally uses a TERMINAL connection, most typically a figure of 8 tied to the front of the harness, and protection comes from a belay person. In tree climbing we use devices that allow us to move along a length of a fixed rope that protects us from falling, yet allows us the freedom to rappel. We use re directs essentially in the same manner- to aid in positioning and to shorten a fall. It is not necessary to buy the latest gadgets to accomplish this as various friction hitches do the same thing, just not as conveniently. And really, if you know what demands you intend to place on a rope- any rope that meets or exceeds that will suffice. Just know the ropes characteristics and limitations. Manufacturers provide that info on their web sites, which is another good reason to buy new rope.
 
This is pretty far off the rails, train’s in the gulley! Catching a fall in a tree with a dynamic rope is a terrible idea. Everyone on this forum who uses dynamic rope climbing trees please raise your hand. Hmm, thought so.
-AJ
 
I've got my hand up Moss! Only for recreational climbing. I originally got one for use in the self belay technique when climbing above 4" diameter in the tree. I like them, so got a couple of others, typically used with a variety of auto locking belay devices. No hitches because they grab too hard on the softer rope.
 
Brocky said:
I've got my hand up Moss! Only for recreational climbing. I originally got one for use in the self belay technique when climbing above 4" diameter in the tree. I like them, so got a couple of others, typically used with a variety of auto locking belay devices. No hitches because they grab too hard on the softer rope.
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Like I said, they have their place albeit a very small one in trees. I find when I use a dynamic rope it is for a reason. As for falling in tree work- I don’t recommend it. There isn’t a belay guy letting you run! When you hit bottom of rope it’s really gonna hurt! If you fall far enough it’s gonna break stuff and maybe kill you.
One application a dynamic rope has for use in tree work is pulling smaller trees by hand with a 2 to 1. A static rope doesn’t continue to provide pulling force quite as long as a dynamic. It’s the reason wire rope and chain is a very bad choice for pulling leaners, they slack off and stop pulling.
 
moss said:
This is pretty far off the rails, train’s in the gulley! Catching a fall in a tree with a dynamic rope is a terrible idea. Everyone on this forum who uses dynamic rope climbing trees please raise your hand. Hmm, thought so.
-AJ
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Falling in a tree is a terrible idea! I will say this though.. I’ve heard of guys breaking a TIP off and falling to the next Crotch and coming to a pretty hard stop! It’s never happened to me yet. Even a 3 foot heart attack would hurt!
 
What new guys don’t get is that when we Let it Run we are artificially making the rope more dynamic, effectively simulated stretch without the rebound. My kingdom for a groundie that understands this basic concept!
 
Brocky said:
I've got my hand up Moss! Only for recreational climbing. I originally got one for use in the self belay technique when climbing above 4" diameter in the tree. I like them, so got a couple of others, typically used with a variety of auto locking belay devices. No hitches because they grab too hard on the softer rope.
Click to expand...

Awesome! Are you anticipating catching a fall?
-AJ
 
Stephen Moore said:
Like I said, they have their place albeit a very small one in trees. I find when I use a dynamic rope it is for a reason. As for falling in tree work- I don’t recommend it. There isn’t a belay guy letting you run! When you hit bottom of rope it’s really gonna hurt! If you fall far enough it’s gonna break stuff and maybe kill you.
One application a dynamic rope has for use in tree work is pulling smaller trees by hand with a 2 to 1. A static rope doesn’t continue to provide pulling force quite as long as a dynamic. It’s the reason wire rope and chain is a very bad choice for pulling leaners, they slack off and stop pulling.
Click to expand...

Yep, dynamic can have it's place in rigging. I'm talking about for climbing of course.
-AJ
 
My point is that all ropes stretch, there is a cut off point where the rope stretch is catagorized as either static or dynamic, and at that point it’s a grey area.
 
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