About those mid-ties...

Jeff said:
Don't the rest of you guys run into horizontal limbs over (houses, wires, sheds, swing sets) the way we do? We have at least 1 per week. If we tip tied it, the butt would strike the house. Butt tie, the tip would strike the house. But with a mid tie, close to the balance point, you can take the entire limb and drift it safely over the target.
Click to expand...
That's true but if you don't get the balance right the butt or tip may hit the house. Usually I ll modify that by tying between the mid point and tip and just peel cut the limb the direction I want, of course that's on a smallish limb. When in doubt I climb out and take small cuts.
 
"This is very confusing."- owScott
Hmmmm, never h-eared that before!! :tanguero:
.
Intense pre tighten long horizontal in prep to sweep sideways to under support point off roof etc.
Roof generally slants down to give more and more clearance.
.
If move directly towards support point, support line slackens.
If allow load to 'settle' down or back, away from rather than towards support point adds more pre-tightening.
If hitchpont is 15' from hinge will auto pre-tighten line more to allow limb to settle down 3 degress than if hitchpoint was 10' from hinge etc.
.
IF get more support from line (because so tight), than hinge;
i start calling hitch point the pivot of the works, and hinge becomes the helper; with lighter duties.
.
The sidewards pull from the super tight line, can force a stronger hinge in response like rope pull in felling.
Now have super tight line and stronger hinge.
.
All we generally need to do is keep head high until move head from over roof;
then cut/tear-off so head goes down(once off roof) lifting butt end up so it doesn't hit roof.
The limb itself works as an arm to do so.
.
In past i had played with near mid tie and butt tie together;
butt tie would be a short line that was used for making sure load in position before dispensing with butt tie line
sometimes would pull out of support on own as limb lowered, a few times just cut that line , sometimes tied it back to other side of cut or to lower limb to keep butt from rising/head dropping before was best to do so...
.
i evolved to using the hinge fiber instead of rope fiber at butt end for support;
visualizing the hinge as my dispensable line.
.
BUT then backstepped some, and put on dispensable line 40' whatever to just totally hang free unused at butt end.
Lower limb to ground control vertically, they grab free end and can float head around, over fence etc.
with the mechanic of the hitchpoint most assuredly pivot now.(started using extra line like this for ground control on crane jobs and then folded it to non-crane, but still same only tree architecture is like a set of fixed crane boom points of support.
.
Hope that's better, can't find olde drawing..
 
I'm surprised Daniel didn't link to his video. I recall a pretty in-depth discussion of this a few years ago, with Daniel doing a lot of explaining. Very interesting and very useful.

Only two drawbacks I can think of are the potential for the butt to come at you if the piece isn't lowered enough before the hinge breaks, and the potential for enormous stress on the rope if pre-tensioned and the piece drops significantly before releasing.

Anyway, here's Daniels video, if I can link to it:
 
It was xmas time 2011...I remember it clearly as I was visiting my in-laws in the UK... Daniel was getting hammered at the time .... more for his arrogance than the technique...It made for hilarious reading...will look for it tonight and see what I find...fun to look back...
 
I never mid tie when rigging. Too much swinging around for me. If I have to balance a limb and swing it 90 degrees to be able to lower it or to transfer it to the other side of the tree I use a spider leg or two, it gets rid of most of the guessing where the balance point is. You tie you main line to the Base then tie the spider legs to the other end and adjust the prussiks so they sit roughly over the balance point of the branch. Only thing I would say is you need to redirect the rigging rope (if you can) to above the balance point so when you cut it you can just lower with no swinging at all.

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk
 
owScott said:
I would agree with you. But I have watched Levi's bro use the mid tie really effectively. I think the advantage is that you can take more limb because you are limited by height with the butt tie. with the mid tie the limb will come down flat. True , you must be careful because the butt can come in on you and the limb can get a little wild. Me personally when I have plenty of height I will butt tie also. In tight locations or not a lot of height I will tip tie and pull the tip into the lowering point that way I can get a lot of limb in one cut with a lot of control. Each method has its place.
Click to expand...

We usually have loads of height here. I never thought of that as an advantage before, but it really is.
 
Frax said:
In a bygone day in a distant land I was following a heated argument about using mid-ties, or "near balance point ties" instead of butt ties as the preferred way to tie off a limb. I wish I could remember the points raised.
I don't think I've ever used one, at least on a piece of any significant length and I can think of only one reason to use one, but I won't muddy the waters by saying.
So... mid-ties instead butt ties, why would you use one?
Click to expand...
Butt ties can tomahawk.
Balance (point) ties might propeller.
Gotta soak up/mitigate forces were available some times.
It's all stuff I learned on the buzz years ago, thank you so much.
 
After reading all 3 pages of the post I've failed to notice anyone talk about the rigging point. it doesn't matter whether you tip mid or butt tie a limb if your rigging point is not setup properly. you can have crazy swings with any of the 3 methods of tying the limb if not setup properly.

If the angle of the rope is headed into the butt of the limb being mid tied this will cause the limb to move outward when cut. if the rope angle is toward the tips of the limb mid tied it will move inward towards the cutter.

I hope that Buzzers don't pass on using the mid tie method because it can be very useful in certain scenarios. Practice is good but if nothing is changed between practice cuts then the cutter will be lead to believe its useless. Knowledge of proper techniques and physics will better increase a riggers chance of not gett'n DEAD!!!

Levi.Co is right when saying that this method is very valuable when it comes to short wide trees and using one rope being controlled by one grounds worker.
 
Mark Gaudet said:
After reading all 3 pages of the post I've failed to notice anyone talk about the rigging point. it doesn't matter whether you tip mid or butt tie a limb if your rigging point is not setup properly. you can have crazy swings with any of the 3 methods of tying the limb if not setup properly.

If the angle of the rope is headed into the butt of the limb being mid tied this will cause the limb to move outward when cut. if the rope angle is toward the tips of the limb mid tied it will move inward towards the cutter.

I hope that Buzzers don't pass on using the mid tie method because it can be very useful in certain scenarios. Practice is good but if nothing is changed between practice cuts then the cutter will be lead to believe its useless. Knowledge of proper techniques and physics will better increase a riggers chance of not gett'n DEAD!!!

Levi.Co is right when saying that this method is very valuable when it comes to short wide trees and using one rope being controlled by one grounds worker.
Click to expand...
That's why I was interested in the discussion. I see this done poorly so often on videos, but now I've seen it done well, and for good reasons.

But you're right. If you don't manage your rigging triangle properly, you can mess up anything.
 
Bucknut said:
I'm surprised Daniel didn't link to his video. I recall a pretty in-depth discussion of this a few years ago, with Daniel doing a lot of explaining. Very interesting and very useful.

Only two drawbacks I can think of are the potential for the butt to come at you if the piece isn't lowered enough before the hinge breaks, and the potential for enormous stress on the rope if pre-tensioned and the piece drops significantly before releasing.

Anyway, here's Daniels video, if I can link to it:
Click to expand...
Okay, I have to admit....Daniel does come across as "abrasive" at times, but you know what? This video shows that he " knows his shit!" He obviously has a great ropeman that he has worked with for a while. That video was like poetry in motion man! As stated before, there are lots of videos of mid-ties that don't look video worthy. This video should be required viewing for anyone attempting a mid-tie. Nice work Daniel-I bow in respect!
 
Mark Gaudet said:
After reading all 3 pages of the post I've failed to notice anyone talk about the rigging point. it doesn't matter whether you tip mid or butt tie a limb if your rigging point is not setup properly. you can have crazy swings with any of the 3 methods of tying the limb if not setup properly.

If the angle of the rope is headed into the butt of the limb being mid tied this will cause the limb to move outward when cut. if the rope angle is toward the tips of the limb mid tied it will move inward towards the cutter.
Click to expand...
.
GUILTY.
.
Guiltier than you'd ever think; over a decade.
Pulling loads around almost 180 degrees rotation, almost horizontal,
>>some started 30 degrees up from horizontal, self tightening as lower, giving only so much relief, only in target direction.
>>line force pulling right in to me...
.
Eventually it got me;
>>but like a morbid circus the more i yelled to lower,
>>the tighter the groundie held the line(not necessarily a fail in design..)
quite simply if line pulls into hinge holds longer, if pulls away from hinge tears off sooner.
>>can git support form inwards pressure.
.
i always visualized the force as steam, and relief, and he held it in the kettle too long.
i didn't cut thru; i was folding to path of least resistance,
(cut thru when no inward pressure on hinge only/laid over to target/support zone)
>>but same wasn't offered by line and forces bound against each other
We were working so much pressure it popped off and came at me/didn't cut thru.
.
Pix of this quality (or lack there of) id say are ISA BBS 90's dial-up age:
mytreelessons.com/explain.jpg & ....../more%20leveraged%20turn.jpg
.
Then later: ...../mayhem%20thoughts.jpg & ..../Leverage%20from%20LegOnLoad.jpg
.
Eventually TB came around: .../forum/threads/hinge-pocket-pressure-rig.1356
.../forum/threads/puzzle-shows-freely-available-rigging-force-help.1295
.
Many more scattered, lost, redundant...
.
Used as a low angle pressure right into ball socket type imagery;
>>Like without being connected a side ways narrow V end on limb
>>could hinge in wide sideways V on tree, folding back and forth
>>with tension right into socket at low angle
.
could bring intense force,
could bring such intense force so can run rig to bottom side of limb, then up thru crotch,
to get a roll/flip to path of least resistance,
that matched the path of least resistance in hinge face,
matching the path of least resistance offered vertically by line.
.
ALSO, can throwline, draw rig line thru crotch and draw back to climber to hitch near butt w/o going 20'-30' ft out on horizontal w/o overhead support.
Head heavy to fold down predictably.
Hangs in V of rigging line thru mid crotch, back to stob/krab/sling.
.
Kinda turns situation upside down;
instead not enough support and seeking more;
too much support and
>>offering path of least resistance (which we do a lot, but now even more purpose-fully).
.
All in all the angle toward climber is always and all ways a consideration,
even if it is Zer0; it should always be referenced like inline and cross-axis forces.
.
Don't have to follow me; done lots worse finding stuff not to do that i don't run mouth about!
>>but should always realize these forces as element of any rig.
Also, i always look yin-yang on rigs and hinges,
>>where is force and where is path of least resistance that loaded force seeks!
(sometimes even comic book brain thinks: tease force/lion with the path of least resistance to draw it in)
.
As far as mid balance tie,
gives all this, and more clearance from hitchpoint to ground and
handles 'lighter' when having to steer load around, as butt length to hitch point is ballast of head weight.
 
Last edited:
TheTreeSpyder said:
.
GUILTY.
.
Guiltier than you'd ever think; over a decade.
Pulling loads around almost 180 degrees rotation, almost horizontal,
>>line force pulling right in to me...
.
Eventually it got me;
>>but like a morbid circus the more i yelled to lower,
>>the tighter the groundie held the line(not necessarily a fail in design..)
quite simply if line pulls into hinge holds longer, if pulls away from hinge tears off sooner.
>>can git support form inwards pressure.
.
i always visualized the force as steam, and relief, and he held it in the kettle too long.
i didn't cut thru; i was folding to path of least resistance,
(cut thru when no inward pressure on hinge only/laid over to target/support zone)
>>but same wasn't offered by line and forces bound against each other
We were working so much pressure it popped off and came at me/didn't cut thru.
.
Pix of this quality (or lack there of) id say are ISA BBS 90's dial-up age:
mytreelessons.com/explain.jpg & ....../more%20leveraged%20turn.jpg
.
Then later: ...../mayhem%20thoughts.jpg & ..../Leverage%20from%20LegOnLoad.jpg
.
Eventually TB came around: .../forum/threads/hinge-pocket-pressure-rig.1356
.../forum/threads/puzzle-shows-freely-available-rigging-force-help.1295
.
Many more scattered, lost, redundant...
.
Used as a low angle pressure right into ball socket type imagery;
>>Like without being connected a side ways narrow V end on limb
>>could hinge in wide sideways V on tree, folding back and forth
>>with tension right into socket at low angle
.
could bring intense force,
could bring such intense force so can run rig to bottom side of limb, then up thru crotch,
to get a roll/flip to path of least resistance,
that matched the path of least resistance in hinge face,
matching the path of least resistance offered vertically by line.
.
ALSO, can throwline, draw rig line thru crotch and draw back to climber to hitch near butt w/o going 20'-30' ft out on horizontal w/o overhead support.
Head heavy to fold down predictably.
Hangs in V of rigging line thru mid crotch, back to stob/krab/sling.
.
Kinda turns situation upside down;
instead not enough support and seeking more;
too much support and
>>offering path of least resistance (which we do a lot, but now even more purpose-fully).
.
All in all the angle toward climber is always and all ways a consideration,
even if it is Zer0; it should always be referenced like inline and cross-axis forces.
.
Don't have to follow me; done lots worse finding stuff not to do that i don't run mouth about!
>>but should always realize these forces as element of any rig.
Also, i always look yin-yang on rigs and hinges,
>>where is force and where is path of least resistance that force seeks!
(sometimes even comic book brain thinks: tease force/lion with the path of least resistance to draw it in)
.
As far as mid balance tie,
gives all this, and more clearance from hitchpoint to ground and
handles 'lighter' when having to steer load around, as butt length to hitch point is ballast of head weight.
Click to expand...
Man.....so much information ......so much insight......I feel like I just took acid and cut a tree.......I'm exhausted
 
Frax said:
That's why I was interested in the discussion. I see this done poorly so often on videos, but now I've seen it done well, and for good reasons.

But you're right. If you don't manage your rigging triangle properly, you can mess up anything.
Click to expand...
you must have seen many good opportunities for this to work in alberta! never been there for tree work but heard and seen about lots of trees with low rigging points
 
Bucknut said:
I'm surprised Daniel didn't link to his video. I recall a pretty in-depth discussion of this a few years ago, with Daniel doing a lot of explaining. Very interesting and very useful.

Only two drawbacks I can think of are the potential for the butt to come at you if the piece isn't lowered enough before the hinge breaks, and the potential for enormous stress on the rope if pre-tensioned and the piece drops significantly before releasing.

Anyway, here's Daniels video, if I can link to it:
Click to expand...

Funny... I forgot about that one... seems like a long time ago.
I got some much better footage to illustrate the concept, but have it all unlisted for now...
I;ve been working on my humility ( a work in progress) as many of you have been working on your rigging...
The industry is coming along.. with such concepts now being familiar to many.. Kind of fun to read the nostalgic stuff where we all got worked up pretty good over the debate. we would have been a far behind without the internet and youtube to share videos.. Back in the day most were only as good as the guys that they worked with...
 
Mark Gaudet said:
you must have seen many good opportunities for this to work in alberta! never been there for tree work but heard and seen about lots of trees with low rigging points
Click to expand...
Bet we could have! We used to climb high and cut small. We probably missed many opportunities for getting things done more efficiently. Not a lot of rigging equipment in our trucks. One rope, one block and one porty. And it was probably on the other truck then we thought about it.
Funny how it's the opposite here. We have everything and we use everything!
 
TheTreeSpyder said:
"This is very confusing."- owScott
Hmmmm, never h-eared that before!! :tanguero:
.
Intense pre tighten long horizontal in prep to sweep sideways to under support point off roof etc.
Roof generally slants down to give more and more clearance.
.
If move directly towards support point, support line slackens.
If allow load to 'settle' down or back, away from rather than towards support point adds more pre-tightening.
If hitchpont is 15' from hinge will auto pre-tighten line more to allow limb to settle down 3 degress than if hitchpoint was 10' from hinge etc.
.
IF get more support from line (because so tight), than hinge;
i start calling hitch point the pivot of the works, and hinge becomes the helper; with lighter duties.
.
The sidewards pull from the super tight line, can force a stronger hinge in response like rope pull in felling.
Now have super tight line and stronger hinge.
.
All we generally need to do is keep head high until move head from over roof;
then cut/tear-off so head goes down(once off roof) lifting butt end up so it doesn't hit roof.
The limb itself works as an arm to do so.
.
In past i had played with near mid tie and butt tie together;
butt tie would be a short line that was used for making sure load in position before dispensing with butt tie line
sometimes would pull out of support on own as limb lowered, a few times just cut that line , sometimes tied it back to other side of cut or to lower limb to keep butt from rising/head dropping before was best to do so...
.
i evolved to using the hinge fiber instead of rope fiber at butt end for support;
visualizing the hinge as my dispensable line.
.
BUT then backstepped some, and put on dispensable line 40' whatever to just totally hang free unused at butt end.
Lower limb to ground control vertically, they grab free end and can float head around, over fence etc.
with the mechanic of the hitchpoint most assuredly pivot now.(started using extra line like this for ground control on crane jobs and then folded it to non-crane, but still same only tree architecture is like a set of fixed crane boom points of support.
.
Hope that's better, can't find olde drawing..
Click to expand...

I have been calling that method in your drawing the tree-RCS because it pre tensions similarly. I like your names too. I have also been known to run two notches/hinges on it.
I set up the one that splits the angle between the tensioning notch and the rigging point before the one I am going to load the line with just to avoid extra forces to account for and to allow me to create a deeper notch safely. Usually it goes underneath the tension notch.
Then I hinge it to load the line and then hinge it more towards where I want it to go with this newfound source of inspiration. It seems that as long as I stop when it stops trying to easily increase tension, the thick hinge has no trouble holding the little chunk under it and my second cut lets me apply more tension as I work the "disposable butt tie" effect of the wood fibers to swing it around.
 
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