Why tie instead of rigging carabiner?

[Serf Life]

Fun video thanks. Worse scenarios than cinching in tree work and the hardware stood up better than I would have guessed.

 

[Lignotuber]

I like the video but I don’t think it’s relevant to tree work. I just can’t see how rigging down a small diameter limb will generate enough force to break a side loaded biner. A inch and half limb weight what 30-40 pounds maybe 80-100 pounds for a big blue spruce limb and those are often speedlined. Generally as weight goes up so does diameter therefore lessening side loading. Just my observation.

I feel like it's totally relevant to the thread/discussion of rigging carabineers as well as tree work in general. Some people really push the limitations of using rigging carabiners to choke off wood/limbs . It's cool and informative to see the failures play out with force data with discussion including deformities and damage to the biners.

 

[flushcut]

I still can't see the comparison. They are loaded to two different axis. maybe if they had rigged up a chunk of wood instead of a large shackle it might be close. The shackle is testing side loading to failure around an extremely small diameter. My point is you will never see forces high enough at that diameter to break a biner rigging out a tree.

 

[Lignotuber]

I still can't see the comparison. They are loaded to two different axis. maybe if they had rigged up a chunk of wood instead of a large shackle it might be close. The shackle is testing side loading to failure around an extremely small diameter. My point is you will never see forces high enough at that diameter to break a biner rigging out a tree.

I see what you're saying and partially agree but did you watch the video or see the photo? He literally choked off a larger chunk of wood as well. I'm pretty certain arborists have broken biners used in similar choking configurations for rigging (larger wood). At the very least deformed them. I broke a 72 kn steel biner on a slackline once.

 

[flushcut]

What are the details of breaking the 72 kn biner?
Ok so I’ll ask the rest of the folks reading this thread: Has anybody broken a biner due to side loading? I haven’t. I have seen an aluminum non locking biner pulled to almost failure. Deformed and unusable but it didn’t fail.

 

[Lignotuber]

What are the details of breaking the 72 kn biner?
Ok so I’ll ask the rest of the folks reading this thread: Has anybody broken a biner due to side loading? I haven’t. I have seen an aluminum non locking biner pulled to almost failure. Deformed and unusable but it didn’t fail.

Using it as a slackline anchor sorta like this photo but steel ring and 72 kn Omega steel locking biner that was double checked beforehand. Other side was connected to choked off spanset. Not ideal but was common practice back in the day and still is for small park lines. Biner exploded during a dynamic movement and almost hit my friend. Luckily he fell into a foam pit and it flew over his head.

 

[Lignotuber]

What are the details of breaking the 72 kn biner?
Ok so I’ll ask the rest of the folks reading this thread: Has anybody broken a biner due to side loading? I haven’t. I have seen an aluminum non locking biner pulled to almost failure. Deformed and unusable but it didn’t fail.

Here's from another thread, 50kn steel biner snapped rigging this log with a half hitch (edit no half hitch).

 

[evo]

@Lignotuber sorry but I call bs on that. That or where ever this photo came from seriously abuse this line. That knot is borderline welded and if a half hitch was used I can’t see any reason the knot would have loaded that strongly.

 

[Lignotuber]

@Lignotuber sorry but I call bs on that. That or where ever this photo came from seriously abuse this line. That knot is borderline welded and if a half hitch was used I can’t see any reason the knot would have loaded that strongly.

From Tree Buzz, whole description and discussion in the thread. That's just the first I saw come up in a quick search. Negative rigging sappy pines from what I recall, definitely abused. I did miss read though (no half hitch) which makes more sense.

 

[flushcut]

Here's from another thread, 50kn steel biner snapped rigging this log with a half hitch (edit no half hitch).

At that diameter the biner wasn’t side loaded just overloaded.

 

[Matias]

Nobody else uses a carabiner for life support in this way? Rigging aside, I found it super relevant enough to our purposes. He literally references the Petzl Zillon manual in the intro.

 

[evo]

Nobody else uses a carabiner for life support in this way? Rigging aside, I found it super relevant enough to our purposes. He literally references the Petzl Zillon manual in the intro.

Maybe once or twice, there is a level of efficiency yet this isn’t it. It takes so little time and effort to tie a knot.
Yet I have little issue with a steel carabiner for rigging small stuff. As in 1/2 rigging line pieces.

 

[Matias]

Maybe once or twice, there is a level of efficiency yet this isn’t it. It takes so little time and effort to tie a knot.
Yet I have little issue with a steel carabiner for rigging small stuff. As in 1/2 rigging line pieces.

Yea, I don't always do it, but when I do it's in places and situations where there is no doubt at all that it will not matter if it goes slack, it can not move into a dangerous position, like right over a union, or on trunks that have the right set of conditions. I also always intend for it to be a short term placement, though occasionally, it ends up staying that way through a short climb.

 

[Serf Life]

Ok so I’ll ask the rest of the folks reading this thread: Has anybody broken a biner due to side loading? I haven’t. I have seen an aluminum non locking biner pulled to almost failure. Deformed and unusable but it didn’t fail.

Only biners I can recall deforming were decommissioned aluminum ones used for winching in a pinch. Same setup as in the video and they took amazing abuse before bending. Think the video was enjoyable to watch, break testing anything is fun.

 

[evo]

Yea, I don't always do it, but when I do it's in places and situations where there is no doubt at all that it will not matter if it goes slack, it can not move into a dangerous position, like right over a union, or on trunks that have the right set of conditions. I also always intend for it to be a short term placement, though occasionally, it ends up staying that way through a short climb.

If it’s within arms reach, no biggie.. way back, when we would climb off a static false crotch ddrt style we would do a bounce test by throwing the non moving end of the ddrt system around the trunk and x2 person bounce on the moving leg.

More than half a dozen times the bark would snag the gate, as the line was tensioned causing a rolling twist and a pull. Diameters were BIG, and choking spine side had little difference. The only thing was orientation of the carabiner opposite if of the loading action of the gate. Too complex for me to dial in for a quick easy!
Not unlike a shackle and paying attention to which direction the screw pin goes in, on the chance of a running line causing enough friction to unscrew the pin.

Way less variables with a well dressed knot. KISS KIOS (keep it simple stupid, keep it old school).

 

[Stumpsprouts]

Yea, I don't always do it, but when I do it's in places and situations where there is no doubt at all that it will not matter if it goes slack, it can not move into a dangerous position, like right over a union, or on trunks that have the right set of conditions. I also always intend for it to be a short term placement, though occasionally, it ends up staying that way through a short climb.

I hear you, and here and there I’ll choke a biner for a climb system, but temporary as you say. It’s not the side loading and potential bending or braking of biner (no way in hell that’s going to happen), it’s the very real threat of the gate opening up, which it has done before my very eyes. (The person in the video mentions this at one point as well).

This can also be mitigated in some circumstances by wrapping a loop of the rope in the biner.. I’ll take a picture of that and add it later.

I have seen someone send up a canopy tie with two biners with the gates facing opposite directions. These days a quickie costs the same as two biners and continues to be my favorite way to play but maybe you already used your quickie and want to set up a second system, etc.

 

[evo]

I hear you, and here and there I’ll choke a biner for a climb system, but temporary as you say. It’s not the side loading and potential bending or braking of biner (no way in hell that’s going to happen), it’s the very real threat of the gate opening up, which it has done before my very eyes. (The person in the video mentions this at one point as well).

This can also be mitigated in some circumstances by wrapping a loop of the rope in the biner.. I’ll take a picture of that and add it later.

I have seen someone send up a canopy tie with two biners with the gates facing opposite directions. These days a quickie costs the same as two biners and continues to be my favorite way to play but maybe you already used your quickie and want to set up a second system, etc.

In the above, when we would raise out ddrt false crotch system, we used opposite facing petzl hms screw gates.
This was to attach the ddrt to the static leg, never thought to use it for a choking base or canopy tie. Like you I see no point.
Most of my lines have a spliced eye, for the rare times I do a canopy tie I’ll use a running bowline. Since there is an eye there I’ll place a carabiner in the eye and snap it to the climbing leg. As a backup of sorts for the knot and maybe a little redundancy that makes no sense. But it’s there so why not? This can be helpful if doing redirects with a retrieval line, a big loose eye in the running bowline and a locking pulley carabiner. The running bow does all the work, and on the retrieval part the carabiner works as a redirect reducing friction and rope on rope. I do this slightly different though and my running bow has a LONG tail, which I will tie an alpine butterfly. Once I get to my primary tip I’ll snap the retrieval leg to the climbing lines eye with a carabiner.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

In all things, linear geometry is focused/specialized to 1 force axis of equal/opposites(minimal allowed);
while round gives multi/all axises of loading 2D equilaterally (as globe/orb does in 3D).
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Round carabiner is an undifferentiated, strength evenly dispersed profile
iBeam brings more of a focused linear, specialized to work on the proper linear axis of the device to position against hook stretching open. iBeam forsaking some lateral/perpendicular to load strength in these bends, where round profile still has it. iBeam profile has less material in the lateral dimension to use against side loading.
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i don't load carabiners like this, even if makes it; how far do you trust that tool/device into the future, possibly failing from a previous overloading more than the then present one. Would prefer Backhand Turn to carabiner around Standing Part (i think Round Turn around SPart would be stronger and more secure geometry)or other contrivance that takes flat carabiner profile from round mount on host of such raw, primary force. Really loading would look even to Bag (or other) back to Standing Part of Slipped Bag with carabiner on end locking thru the bight slipped type builds. Especially if small host where Bag nip serves more to top nip position, most opposite the input load as most secure nipping, perhaps greater top nip than Constrictor dbl.side nip as Hitch. Bag doesn't pull to center of host, more relaxed loading to side of host, so look to be stronger, but any dynamics would look to favor no freedom for Bitter End.
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A carabiner is single support leg hook. The gate is fancy 'mousing'. This gives capture AND keeps hook from bending open. The gate can be same design and material , pulled properly inline. But the strength of gate side is limited by small steel axle pulled perpendicular/not properly inline.

US Army Rigging manual is incredible, bare bonz, raw world resource:
Army Rigging Manual mousing (link)

 

[climbhightree]

I’ve been using the same steel carabiners for rigging wood and limbs for well over a decade. I try and orient them with the spine taking the load and with a half hitch if taking something large. In all my years of doing this I’ve only had to retire a few carabiners because the gates didn’t function at 100% and zero carabiners break or cease to function completely.

Sometimes I’m thinking to myself “should I be doing this” but other times I find myself thinking “how many rigs have I done in the last 15+ years WITH THE SAME CARABINERS and not had an issue. Years of removals and the number of rigging events I’ve done over that timespan is quite the test. Is it a testament to how conservative I am in my rigging? The religious nature of how I use the half hitch? The quality of the carabiners I use? I can’t answer those questions. What I will say is I have a tremendous amount of faith in the strength of an ISC carabiner improperly loaded while clipped around a limb or log.

A little over 20 years rigging with steel carabiners and spliced eyed ropes (always using a half hitch) , and I agree with everything you said and experienced the same. I've only seen one snap, and that was due to over weight...a small crane lifting a small piece of wood that wasn't fully cut through (wasn't me...i was there helping them with other work).