What is it worth?

The system I am referring to is the general system of employee/employer arrangement in the US, which in my opinion is highly exploitative. More specifically in our realm, systems encouraged by isa and tcia. In my opinion these groups create propaganda intended to brainwash workers into believing this is a "jta" as they put it, job to admire. They also provide forms and legal documents to protect business owners from repercussion when the inevitable shit hits the fan. I think this is dishonest and exploitative. Especially since this job is so dangerous. Wage slavery is bad enough but when it is deadly and glamorized at the same time and destitute individuals are tricked into believing they are in the ranks of shiny tree heros who bravely march fourth each day and ascend the urban canopy all for the greater good of mankind, to me that is a load of shit.
 
Crimsonking said:
What system are you referring to, and how is it exploitative? I see very little system in US arb work. I have worked for those who exploit (quite short tenure) and for those who have and still would rather put themselves in harms way than ask someone else to do it. Recently I rejoined a team I was with a few years ago. Today the owner asked my opinion of a damaged tree. It may be the most compromised structure requiring technical removal that I’ve ever seen. He was planning to tackle it tomorrow because he didn’t want to ask anyone else to take the risk. That’s far from exploitative.

When we start assuming intention, we go astray. That’s not to say that correction isn’t necessary, but we must correct actions. I agree with those who have said our work is inherently hazardous. There is a matter of statistical averages. This fact should not be a crutch, for sure, but it is a fact. I believe the best thing that can be done for recruits is to manage expectation- the climber, chipper, and saws are trying to kill you. Follow protocol, and engage with the team so that all are following protocol, and no death can be blamed on a person. In this life, death is a reality- often unwelcome, unnatural feeling to our souls, an interruption to what we continually crave: life. Ultimately our goal is to leave here without blood on our hands, so I conclude that eliminating deaths within the industry is improbable, but we should strive daily for our hands to be clean of another’s blood.
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I would double like if I could!

I want to see the statistics on certified arb injuries/deaths....

Definitely happens but at what rate in comparison to non certified...

As I’ve stated before, I mainly commercial fish for a living. I don’t like being poor. I also don’t have a college degree. Most of all I like being alive!, but I am willing to do work that is “inherently dangerous” in order to make the danger pay . I just try to BE CAREFUL as much as possible. One day it might be me who has an accident. In the meantime I’ll assume anyone else is faking to get out of work
 
I worked on a boat a few years ago I made 16k in three weeks. I also knew the operator/owner would put himself and his business before anyone on the deck. Left knowing my family could really use the money I could make on that boat, but figured it was more important to be safe
 
That picture isn't far off base. Communism ends up just being the same thing without the middle tiers, though.
I am just rather happy to be able to talk shit on the internet about both our current system AND the idiots that think they can make it better by growing the opressive regulation structure alike. I also like deciding for myself what I am going to do with my day whenever I see fit.
 
Flex Abednego said:
I worked on a boat a few years ago I made 16k in three weeks. I also knew the operator/owner would put himself and his business before anyone on the deck. Left knowing my family could really use the money I could make on that boat, but figured it was more important to be safe
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That was hard. That is a lot of cash to make without knowing that you are exploiting others.
 
For reference this is the picture witty mentioned.
Pyramid_of_Capitalist_System.png
 
Some of the worst people in society are caught in limbo between the first and second tier. For one reason or another they are elevated ever so slightly above the rest on the bottom, believing they have made it to the second tier (in fact this is not true and they are still reviled by this "higher class") and immediately seek to exploit others who are in the same situation they just left. All the while patting themselves on the back for providing labor and "good jobs" to the needy community. By the way, I do not advocate for communism, at least I don't think I do!
 
Totally, brah! I'm rope walking my right to the bank! But not 16k in a 3 weeks, I don't think I could make that in trees without pimpin a bit...
 
evo said:
I have often wondered about this. I don’t know how you’d clean up the numbers? ISA cert only? It seems like the numbers are inflated from all the landscapers or anyone else with a business license but really shouldn’t touch a saw or leave the ground
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Many pros work the woods up here and have been for generations that are not ISA certified nor CUA. I’m not sure the answer lies there. Safety ultimately is as much an individual responsibility as it is a team one. If your team has a player on it that wants to do things in an unsafe manner, that’s when shit happens.
There is a guy, my competition actually that is a non certified tree worker that actually teaches chainsaw safety courses for BC Hydro crews! ? Never could figure out how he got that gig? Maybe the fact that he was on the pro loggers sport circuit for many years?
 
Levi.CO said:
The system I am referring to is the general system of employee/employer arrangement in the US, which in my opinion is highly exploitative. More specifically in our realm, systems encouraged by isa and tcia. In my opinion these groups create propaganda intended to brainwash workers into believing this is a "jta" as they put it, job to admire. They also provide forms and legal documents to protect business owners from repercussion when the inevitable shit hits the fan. I think this is dishonest and exploitative. Especially since this job is so dangerous. Wage slavery is bad enough but when it is deadly and glamorized at the same time and destitute individuals are tricked into believing they are in the ranks of shiny tree heros who bravely march fourth each day and ascend the urban canopy all for the greater good of mankind, to me that is a load of shit.
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I’m sorry but this is way off base. Brainwashing, propaganda, glamorizing.... come to the owner level, and find any kind of good help! The ISA and TCIA to a phenomenal job shedding light on our industry for young people and all others. Yes it’s to entice them to join our wonderful profession, but they are also HUGE resources for work place safety, business management and technical support.
I would argue without these organizations, those of us that actually give a shit, wouldn’t be here because we wouldn’t have the available work force or resources to run out businesses. There would be NO standards. It would be a bunch of hotshot cowboys with beat up pickups and dads chainsaw.
As for the pyramid of capitalism not all business is run like that. The boss is not always in the upper levels.
People need to get their head out of the sand and look around, not all business is run the same way. You are generalizing which is no better than brainwashing, glamorizing and propaganda!
 
rico said:
Why so many deaths and injuries? Is it just that we hear about them more these days, or are there more accidents? I have been thinking about this quit a bit lately.

It seems that our gear has gotten way less rugged, and some of the more modern techniques seem a little more prone to accidents.

I climbed on the same floating dee, leg strap saddle for over 30 years and never gave it a second thought. The old saddle is alive and well, and I would still trust my life with it. Sure it is not as comfy as a TreeMo or MB, but you could hang a fucking truck off this thing. Look at the webbing and bridge on a Weaver/Buckingham floating dee, and a TreeMo/MB, then tell me which one you would trust to keep you safe?

As much as I am loving SRT, it sure seems to me that it can have some serious issues with TIP failure. I never heard of so many folk having their TIP's fail back in the dark ugly days of Ddrt.

Just some thoughts from a crusty old-timer. As a recent SRT convert, these latest and greatest tools have been a real game changer for me, but I just don't have the same level of trust with them that I do with some of my old-school gear. Over 30 years of a Floating Dee, 7/8" wire-core flip-line, and a taut-line hitch, and I can honestly say I never had a moment of uncertainty about my gear. Ever!
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Information age.
More climbers than ever, more people than ever.
People used to fall a lot more from free-climbing. If they are not free-climbing, they are more likely to be left alive to fall off a rope system.
a cognitive bias: the Normalcy Bias. Quoting from the Wiki article,

The assumption that is made in the case of the normalcy bias is that since a disaster never has occurred then it never will occur. It can result in the inability of people to cope with a disaster once it occurs. People with a normalcy bias have difficulties reacting to something they have not experienced before. People also tend to interpret warnings in the most optimistic way possible, seizing on any ambiguities to infer a less serious situation.​


People are dum!
People go with "it will be alright, i'll just re-enter the cheat-code and get a new life".



I tell people safety rules all the time...they say, that makes sense. I say yes, of course it makes sense. It keeps us safer. E.g. when hitching the trailer up, and someone goes behind the truck, you put it in park or neutral/ parking brake. Like taking the finger off the trigger when you're not actually ready to shoot.
Don't stand where you can be crushed (under something, in front of or behind a truck being moved, downhill of rolling hazards).

Too much detachment from the physical world has made more and more people rely on other people over themselves (other people make the button that does things right in an automated way.






"...well, i thought..." famous last words.


I have been known to say that reality doesn't care about what you thought.
 
Levi.CO said:
This is true, yet the fact remains that there is a system in place that is killing young men, in the name of $$$. This isn't about the dong with the poulan, it's about the people who check all of the boxes and then look the other way sending kids who don't know any better into the fray, all for a measly hourly wage! To each their own but I personally encourage anyone who is a wage slave in this deadly occupation to get while the gettin's good! At least if your part of a fair collective or building your own biz you died on your own account, not earning cheese for some dude to cover insurance on his 3rd Ski-doo!
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You speak of the entire risk benefit of my current situation. If I'm gonna go down in flames it'll be my my own doing, stupidity, lack of biz planning not these people I've spent the last 15 years slaving for and getting sporadic pay whilst risking my life so they can support whatever nasty habit they hide from society. If I was gonna stay in this biz I love I had to break out of the cycle and go it alone.
 
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