Violence, gun culture, what can be/should be done.

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Possibly true. As far as not needing multiple shots, I'm not so sure. As an Elk hunter and living at sea level, after even a fifty yd dash to get on a heard at ten thousand ft I am winded at have a hard time hitting a stop sign let alone a small target. My point is, in a real world situation with adrenaline pumping, unless you are trained to handle it, most will never hit their target. A single shot weapon will only leave you as the target.

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You don't really hunt elk like that do you? Sounds like fun. You need to try calling and stalking them. But then again I've got close to lots of elk but I've never put one in the freezer so you might be onto something. I prefer my muzzleloader single shot that school is so old it's not there anymore. Your not a target then, if your quick you can have it reloaded before the smoke clears even if it takes five minutes. Next thing I have to try and not get an elk with will be archery.
 
I have only had to "rush" Elk a few times during a late season hunt. They get pretty spooky after being chased around and shot at for a couple months. My archery Elk was at 18 yds. Dropped like a stone as I hit heart nd both lungs. I agree calling is the best practice. i once called a heard of twenty back across an avalanche chute, about a quarter mile. I had a cow Elk so close I could have kissed her. Good stuff. Now back to our regular scheduled programming.
 
I figured that was the part of the story missing. OK now back to the debate. More fun talking about elk. A pile of grain, alfalfa bales, seasoned with salt works too. Lay the bait and wait.
 
When I lived in Northern Arizona Elk would literally lumber across my property and peak in the windows(so it seamed). Getting a tag was freaking hard however. I didnt live there long enough to accumulate enough points but definitely assisted some friends especially when quartering meat and hiking out of hard to reach areas.
the most beautiful place i have ever been that is elk related
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Caldera. if you can get a visitor tag do it.
 
I'm awake now! I got to wonder is it the horse or the cart? Yup they're wacky and were acting erratic to be put on the medicine. You don't take your normal kid to the doctor and get some pills just because. On second thought, some do.

Depression, bi-polar, schizophernia are all similar in their cause I think. Different medication is used on the three and none are a miracle cure.

You can do everything right for the sick. Make sure they have a safe home, give them outdoor activities etc. just be the best parents possible and they'll still be sick possibly. One generation ago depression was cured by telling the sufferer to wish it away with that already broken brain. The current medication is the best solution so far. For sure it's a money making scam mostly but there's no other better option available currently. The doctors can't xray you and say your not weird enough to qualify for this dangerous medicine that might work. They ask a couple questions and send you off to the pharmacy. Next.

I bet there was a caveman who was fitting in fine then he started laughing at his own jokes more and more and one day he came into the cave and clubbed his group for no reason. This isn't something new that started with the medication. They may be more for profit than for cure and appears to cause worse erractic behaviour in some cases. It's a tough nut to crack. Out of my league.
 
This morning's CSPAN had the author of the book "Columbine" on the show explaining how easily Eric and Dylan obtained their weapons through an 18 year old accomplice of their's at a gun show.

But when a caller brought up the subject of SSRI drugs being a common factor in each one of these massacres, the author Cullen, started into his pablum about these drugs balancing a chemical imbalance that snaps kids out of lethargic depression and get out of bed, etc, blah blah.

Then this wonderful truth telling nurse from a teenage psychiatric ward in Arizona, called in to let everyone know that the author was full of it, and that she had a ward full of psychotic teenage murderers who'd flipped out on SSRI's to prove it!

Why doesn't the media, including CSPAN, interview PhD doctors and nurses with firsthand experience on these matters? What's the point of muckraking and book selling on the backs of these tragedies?

If I slip LSD into your daily routine and you flip out?

Who is to blame?

Compliant Jonny, or his drug dealer?

jomoco
 
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How much more red tape do you want?

If its saving lives you're really interested in, why don't we do background checks so drunk drivers can't buy cars?

Where do you draw the line?

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The irony of your statement is that we require people to pass a test to drive a car and in many states require drivers ed but almost anyone can by a gun. If you are caught drinking and driving you will lose your license (and some places will actually attempt to help you deal with your drinking problem) but the only similar restriction we have on firearms is that a felon cannot own a firearm (which is also incredibly arbitrary, was the felony committed violent or not, was a firearm used in the crime?). The truth is that we need a rational discussion on gun laws in our country. The only people who seem to speak up are the nutjobs who refuse to acknowledge that firearms have a very important role in our lives whether it is for hunting, home defense or simply recreation, and the nutjobs who think that any discussion of gun control means that all firearms will be banned from all people.
 
Chemical imbalance. I keep hearing the term, yet there's not one single test to measure this supposed imbalance. It's only a theory.

On the other hand, doctors are the biggest drug pushers around. Drug reps visit offices daily buying the entire staff lunch to get doctors to prescribe the latest miracle cures. (it's true... My wife hasn't had to buy a lunch in over seven years)

Big pharma has the connections and money to see their drugs get crammed through FDA approval in double-time, even when their own clinical trials show massive warning signs of adverse effects. Remember the Thalidomide babies? Among many others...

What we used to treat with a kick in the pants we treat with drugs. Won't sit still in class? Rittalin. Normal teen angst? Prozac. Life got ya down? No need to pull up your shorts like a big boy and deal with it, we've got a pill for that, too. A pill for every ill, so people don't have to use morals and logic and reason to resolve their problems any more.

I can't count how many different doctors have tried to puch anti-depressants on me to help deal with my accident. No thanks, I can deal with the reality of it on my own. I came close to death, I beat the odds, and I'm recovering. It sucks, but crap happens; that's life.

It's a deadly mix. Add in a lack of parental guidance... I.e. TWO parents... Toss in some Hollywood desensitization to violence... And you've created a ticking bomb just waiting to go off.

The very fact that they choose these "assault-style" weapons is the result of Hollywood sensationalism. Anyone with real gun or combat knowledge would choose a weapon much better suited to close-quarter combat with maximum lethality potential.
 
Wyo, do you own guns? I don't know about your state, but it's a whole lot more involved here. Firearms classes, etc. are required before you even get licensed to own one. It's not that simple or easy.

As for the felony thing, that's my one big departure from probably 99% of public opinion. I think that once someone has served their time, ALL of their civil rights should be fully restored. In some states, convicted felons can't even vote for the remainder of their life. It's silly.
 
I agree with what you say about doctors being the biggest drug dealers but saying that mental illness can be solved with a kick in the pants tells me that you have no experience with it. There is overdiagnosis (because doctors make money by prescribing drugs and parents often don't want to actually deal with their children) but the people committing these mass shooting are not just bratty kids, they are truly mentally disturbed. Mental illness is real and as long as we continue to overdiagnose (pill for every ill) or underdiagnose (all that kid needs is a kick in the pants) these shooting and attacks will continue ( I add in attacks because I do not think anything would stop if suddenly no one had access to guns, they are a facet of the problem, not the main part of it).
And don't tell me that you are a responsible gun owner. So am I. If everyone was a responsible gun owner we would have no issues. But many people are irresponsible and uneducated.
 
I wasn't suggesting mental illness isn't a real problem, mate. Merely highlighting how casual our system is at doling out unproven drugs to correct non-issues, while tying our hands when it comes to the serious ones. I've had my share of dealing with such people.

Thankfully, in my state we actually can force people who display a willingness to harm themselves or others into care; sadly, such legal ability was voted down in CT not long before the Newtown killings.
 
I haven't checked facts here, but it is interesting.


*Kip Kindel was withdrawing from Prozac and had been prescribed Ritlin when he murdered his mother and stepfather then shot 22 classmates, killing two in 1998.
*Christopher Pittman was withdrawing from Luvox and from Paxil when he killed his grandparents in 2001.
*Elizabeth Bush, who fired at fellow students in Williamsport, PA., in 2001, wounding one, was on prozac.
*Jason Hoffman, was on Effexor and Celexa when he opened fire at his El Cajon, CA., high school, wounding five.
*Shawn Cooper, on antidepresents, wounded six at his Conyers, GA., high school.
*Eric Harris, on antidepresents, wounded six at his Conyers, GA., high school.
*Eric Haris was taking Luvox when he and fellow student Dylan Klebold killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 24 others before turning their guns on themselves at Columbine high school in Colorado.
*At Virginia Tech in 2007, where 32 were murdered, authorities found "prescription medications related to the treatment of Psychological problems had been found among Mr. Cho's effects, "according to the New Yorki Times.

ADAM LANZA. In mass shootings involving guns and mind-altering medications, politicians immediately seek to blame guns but never the medication. Nearly every mass shooting that has taken place in America over the last two decades has a link to psychiatric medication, and it appears the recent tragic event is headed in the same direction.
According to ABC News, Adam Lanza, the alleged shooter, has been labeled as having "mental illness" and a "personality disorder." These are precisely the words typically heard in a person who is being "treated" with mind-altering drugs. One of the most common side effects of psychiatric drugs is violent outbursts and thoughts of suicide!

WE SHOULD BE OUTLAWING PSYCHIATRIC MEDICATIONS, NOT A PIECE OF METAL? Medications that cause violent and suicidal behavior. After all, if you only outlaw guns but fail to eliminate the drugs that cause the violence, people dosed up on mind-altering meds will simply find alternate weapons to commit the same acts of violence. You don't think a crazy guy with a sword can hack up 20 or 30 kids in a school? A sword, a knife or even a pick axe can be just as deadloy as a firearm.

Wouldn't you agree that any rational and reasonably intelligent person would come to the same conclusion! Makes you kinda wonder dosen't it... what kind of psychiatric medications are in the delutional gun grabbing politicians medicine cabinet!
 
What about the underlying psychiatric condition? Does that not play a part in the behavior? We closed mental health facilities and then sought other solutions to disorders. Not to say that in their state at the time these places were doing a great job, but it was a cost issue more than a failure of treatment that drove the closures.

Modern pharmaceuticals were developed to fill the void of treatment. Like most things we humans have created they are imperfect. Their advantage, cheaper than a hospital and the burden for the expense is borne by the individual.

Time for real discussion of solutions to a societal malady, random acts of violence perpetrated by unstable individuals marginalized by this society.

Oh and a sword, knife or pick axe while they can wreak havoc can't be as deadly as a firearm. That's why we no longer spend billions developing these as assault weapons.
 
As a Canadian who has lived in Europe and the US, I might have a different perspective. But probably, I'm just adding my two cents to this circular seemingly unresolvable issue because I've had several drinks and feel like weighing in.

Too many easily obtainable effing guns in a society where it seems like everybody is on some kind of effing drugs meant to calm or emotionally stabilize. Everyone thinks it's normal but I don't.

I'm fine with guns, and I like target shooting and I respect those who hunt for and can dress their own meat, so I'm no 'bleeding heart'. But something is way beyond wrong.

I don't say what I think too much because America is a land full of friendly people who have been nevertheless raised in a 'me first' , 'I win' belligerent culture. Pissed off Americans want to shoot guns. That's my main conclusion.
 
glad to see your comments.

Interesting.

If I'm pissed off, I don't think about my guns. Never have.

Seriously, you just made me ponder that.

Maybe because I was taught from the time I was a young kid, never to point a gun at anyone.

Me, if I was really pissed off.... I'd take someone to the ground with my bare hands, stick my thumbs in their eye sockets and rip their skull apart; if I could.

If I couldn't, I'd stomp on their face with my heal until I could.

How's that?
 
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