used a few ropes on this one

colb said:
Counting on going back with a crane when the grcs + truck + ma system doesn't provide enough force. Easily could have been a 6k job, imo. But it wasn't. If you charge 6k and it ends up being 8k you don't go demand 2 extra k. Daniel had a contract and fulfilled it.
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Kind of a silly argument, why not ask for 8k from the start following that line of reasoning. Simple you tell the customer that you start with a simple plan and if it works here is the price, in this case 6k. If it doesn't work here is plan B 8k crane removal. Or start with 8k price and if plan A works reduce the price to 6k. This really isn't my point. My point is 6k is way over priced. What I hear you saying is as long as the customer agrees to the price and you fulfill the contract, get the money. Pretty sure the customer didn't realize they were being over charged and I do blame the customer as they say buyer beware. Guessing Daniel knew that was over priced for a cut and leave, but decided HEY bonus. Its a hard decision because we all work for money, but is that the kind of businessman you want to be? If so and money is all that's valued, fair enough.
 
I know what you mean. I respect your integrity and honesty. But we seem to give others a pass. We all just accept that a Dr. can charge $1000 for 5 minutes of work (X-ray), or a hospital can charge $100 for a Tylenol pill, or a good lawyer gets $5000 up front for a consult.
 
Funny because I was telling my log loader about the job. When he found out that I knew about the 10K price when I bid it for 6, he politely reprimanded me for leaving that much $ on the table


I had lost the handle for the GRCS, so I called another arb that lives a couple blocks away from the job. He stopped by and looked the job over. First thing he said is, why didn't you take a pass on the tree? He thought that the liability wasn't worth it. No lack of experience there. He placed 3rd in the ITCC back in the day....

Too little for the loader. Too much for you, too dangerous for him... guess I just got to please myself...

Gonna offer the client a tax deduction on the remaining 5K, as I pledged to donate that much to the hunger project ... I'll let him make the donation and take the deduction... money never goes on the books... win Win win
 
owScott said:
Wow, $10,000 crane removal. $6000 to pile it up and leave that's a crazy price. I totally get the situation. Seems that the climber made $300 for the business and Daniel made $5700 how can you justify that. In 30 years of tree work that's the highest profit margin I have heard of. Customer got robbed. The fence is not relevant, except for pride. But for $6000 I would have took it down in dinner plate size cuts. Did 1 similar last fall in the dark with a head lamp $1500. If you think the tree is that dangerous don't do the tree, how did you determine that price, just that it sounded better than $10,000 which sounds like a price that someone gave that they were over their heads and don't know what they are looking at or both. I know some will say you must charge for the risk factor, I get that, but $6000 seems like you are almost counting on dying.
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Yeah, my thoughts exactly. Maybe his primary sub climber since Daniel cant do this himself anymore simply had a enough work going on and weight out risk vrs reward. If I had that much $ on a job, and all I did was shoot some ropes in a tree I'd certainly kick down the climber 30% or greater. Anything else is just greedy.

While I think the rigging was pretty much spot on, the whole thing stinks (I'd never even consider setting up a GRCS in that manner, pulling on the fairleads like that)..

As for the fence.. Well it's just a fence, but why wait for it to get damaged before doing something about it? If it were really in the contract, why take it down after it was damaged? I will smash shit, but give the customer a choice. Basically saying that this job is X amount if we take efforts to protect this object, or we could so it cheaper at Y cost if that thing really isn't that important to you.

here is a google review (the most recent one) on Danny boys work. I am sure if someone feels they saved $4K they might feel differently.. I see and hear a lot of double speak coming from Danny, who says that this was a 10K tree? The company who didn't really want it? Or was it Danny telling the customer that this was a 10K tree if zero damage was needed, but if he could blast shit he'd do it for $6K and find some chump climber to pay $300 when making $5700 for tugging on some ropes (granted the plan was pretty clever, even if rigged wrong)
"
Bob Smith
2 reviews
a month ago
Run away!!!
The 10% you save using Daniel is so not worth the damage to your property, aggravation, disruption to your life. Everything that Daniel says is either a lie or a half truth.For example:
This is a 2 day job. Yes it should be a 2 day job but for Daniel it will take 5 days.
I will be over shortly = 2 hours
I will be there tomorrow = I will be there when I get there
I have mats that I put down to protect your lawn. Yes he puts them down where the lawn meets the edge of the driveway, but not anywhere else so that you end up with holes in your lawn from the truck stabilizers.
Tell him not to go on the neighbors lawn-he does anyway.
I get permission from other neighbor, who is elderly and battling brain cancer, for Daniel to come onto my lawn from their driveway, he does his work (incomplete by the way) and then he leaves for the day,leaving the mats on their lawn. He does not show up the next day. Then 2days later shows up briefly, moves the mats to the driveway, exposing the grass he just killed and leaves-so my neighbor can't use their driveway!
And this is after he drove his skid steer into their garden and ripped up the railroad ties twith o pick up the branches in bulk instead of having his people drag them out.
Did I mention he ran over my stepping stones at the side of my house breaking several?

Lies. Deceit. Property Damage. Daniel."
 
treegongfu said:
That was interesting.

The main pull line running through the GRCS was up through a crotch and tied to the base of the tree?

Doesn't that cause a large amount of the pulling force to be transmitted down the tree as a compression force?

If it were tied high up on the tree I think it would have required less force to lift the tree and reduced the force on the ropes.

Am I wrong?

Anyway Daniel managed it. Good job!
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Yes, but if you don't take the time to climb up there to tie it off proper there is little option. Don't forget Daniel doesn't climb any more because he feels it's too risky when he can pay others chump change while he makes bank.
 
Bucknut said:
I guess I'm still looking at the risk factor. It's not like he was there for 8 hours pruning Dogwoods. $6000 may seem steep in hindsight, but that's because it all worked out. What if a guy line had snapped and the tree slammed into the neighbor's house? What if the tree shifted and threw the climber off balance and he cut himself? Etc., etc. Granted, $6000 doesn't cover those scenarios, but it's the price of entry. $6000 is the price at which Daniel felt the risk was worth the reward. And yes, I know he wasn't the one in the tree but he has been in the past.

Maybe I just don't see the problem. If he threw out $15,000 and the customer felt that was reasonable, then that's that. Again, we all know what the job is worth to us, but sometimes you gotta factor in what it's worth to the customer to have someone they trust onsite to alleviate their issue. Customers usually factor in more than price when choosing service providers.

You say above "that was worth about $2000 tops". Clearly not. We now know it was worth at least $6,000. Don't get me wrong, I know what you mean. But maybe we're worth more than we think sometimes.
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I hear what you are saying and I respect your opinion. I think the difference in opinion is that I don't think that was that risky of a situation for several reasons. Chances of the lines breaking is slim to none and the tree would more than likely just stick back into the other tree. I do disagree, just because the customer agreed to 6k doesn't make it worth 6k. If he put 6k on it because he thought there were chances of any of those things happening then why not 15k. My guess was 6k sounded better than 10k. I think he just through the dice hoping they would say yes. It means they were worried and hasty in their decision to go with 6k. I could be wrong. I would not feel good about charging that kind of money for what was not that big of deal. I just don't like the idea of charge as much as you can and if they go for it great.
 
At the end of the day we all have to decide whether we are ok with gauging our clients or not. That was a $2500-$3000 love em and run job, tops. Thats if he hadn't smashed their stuff that he had permission to smash, then decided after smashing some of their stuff that it was probably best if he stopped smashing anymore of their stuff. Did I get that right?
 
Bucknut said:
I know what you mean. I respect your integrity and honesty. But we seem to give others a pass. We all just accept that a Dr. can charge $1000 for 5 minutes of work (X-ray), or a hospital can charge $100 for a Tylenol pill, or a good lawyer gets $5000 up front for a consult.
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Yes I know. 2 wrongs don't make it right. I worry about what I can control, myself. I believe treating people right is the best plan for success in the future. Thanks for the input.
 
Saved this sweet little old lady $5,600... She started crying when I gave here the price saying she had been praying for help to get this tree down without wiping out her savings...

Made it look easy, but it was a hairy tree.. There's no one else around here that would have tried to fall this tree.... Though that's not saying much.. This isn't ex-logger territory. Before youtube came along the vast majority of arbs around here didn't even know how or why to cut a clean notch ..


 
owScott said:
Rico, I am originally from the western slope of Cali near Placerville where the trees are big and there is reasonable money. I come from 25 years plus of big tree wrecking and I agree that was not a big deal. Maybe a 6 out of 10 on the gnarly scale. Majority of the danger was decided by the time they stood it up, especially because the climber could tie into another tree. Take a tree completely detached at the base, not stood up or supported, no other tree to tie into, maybe no bark dead, in the wind , and what the hell at night. Still not $6000. Done them tied into the tree the snag is in lowering pieces off that tree. The crane video I just posted wasn't $10,000. How Daniel handled the tree was fine, I just think he through a crazy price at the customer because they were worried and they went for it, I think that lacks integrity. Don't get me wrong, I do this for money and do well for myself but that was worth about $2000 tops.
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My mom lived in Placerville back in the 80's. Its been a long time since I have been through there, but I remember it being a beautiful old mining town, with some nice timber in the woods.

If I haven't already said it, welcome to TB buddy. Its pretty clear from your Cottonwood vid that you are a highly skilled, kickass tree-man, so I for one will be listening when you post.

Where you working these days? I haven't seen Cottonwoods that size since I worked in Colorado and Northern New Mexico.
 
Daniel said:
It was 3:1 MA system, not 8:1, and I recall that the GRCS has 1800 lbs of lift, so 1800 x 3=5,400 -friction guestimate 400= 5,000 lbs... That tree would have stood up pretty quick if we had had 28,000 lbs ......

I was actually going to go with 1/2" double braid as the second line and save the heavier rope (in case it was needed for the truck pull), thinking that at 1,800 lbs, the GRCS would easily keep that rope to 20% SWL.. Another old tree guy was there and was dead set against the idea, so I went with the heavier line...

I'd guess the truck was pulling about 5,000 lbs as well (2,500 on each leg)

What was not shown on camera is that I did switch out the support line from just through the fairlead of the GRCS to the overhead redirect block. I had originally just snugged it up as seen, but the climber wanted more pull on that line, so it seemed best to use the block since it was already set up... I have bent those fairleads before..

The climber tied into a neighboring tree before the tension was taken off the original support lines, which were triangulated. IMO once those lines were triangulated and the tree stood up, the leaner was the best supported tree in the woods, but hey, it wasn't my life at risk...

That said, we did consider that the tree may have gone over backwards, but the stretch on those lines was only going to move it so far and the tree still had enough lean to make the going backward scenario near impossible..

It all seems pretty simple in retrospect, and I attempted to keep the, "this is just another tree" calm mindset during the operation. We really just took our time setting all the ropes up and found a climber that wasn't afraid.. He made $300 for about 1.5 hours work... Had my regular guy balk without even seeing the tree..
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Good for you sir! Your company did an excellent job! Nobody got hurt,made money,and the homeowner thanked you for saving her money. I am sure she could have got a cheaper price and nobody knows how that could have worked out. We could be all be chatting about how that job went wrong!! As I tell my customers “you can go eat a .99cent burger or support your locals and get a quality burger” seems like a lot of Haterade going on here!!!!
 
owScott said:
Yes I know. 2 wrongs don't make it right. I worry about what I can control, myself. I believe treating people right is the best plan for success in the future. Thanks for the input.
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What did you charge for the big cottonwood???

The real "what if" on this job is what if we didn't have enough pull to straighten the tree out.. Which is a direct function of "what if" this tree was hooked into the chestnut oak...
 
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Thank you for sharing the numbers of this job Daniel. We would all do it differently and charged diff $$ (I guess I am horribly cheap...) and relative cost/area is always interesting to hear. Do tree "surgeons" get paid more...?
 
rico said:
My mom lived in Placerville back in the 80's. Its been a long time since I have been through there, but I remember it being a beautiful old mining town, with some nice timber in the woods.

If I haven't already said it, welcome to TB buddy. Its pretty clear from your Cottonwood vid that you are a highly skilled, kickass tree-man, so I for one will be listening when you post.

Where you working these days? I haven't seen Cottonwoods that size since I worked in Colorado and Northern New Mexico.
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Rico, I moved to the front range in Colorado 6 years ago. Got married have a son, things have changed, except I still have love for this and I am pushing 30 years climbing. I grew up smashing down big trees and knew nothing about treebuzz and this tree culture and never got into flag tapping. I try and remain respectful, but I see a lot of back slapping and BS. Thanks for watching my video, it was my 1st video and felt it was worth documenting.
 
Fuck all this, get as much as ya can. You win some, you lose some. Sure as shit 90% of the schedule is gonna nickel and dime you. When you know someone appreciates the work and understands what actually is going on, take the money with pride. I’ve spent hours pulling on ropes to secure trees just for a little control. Daniel didn’t send the climber up there cold, he secured it from every angle. It’s great what people can cherry pick from a half hour video.
 
Figured you might be in Colorado. Your 1st vid was good one, so I hope you make the effort to make more in the future.
 
Jem4417 said:
Fuck all this, get as much as ya can. You win some, you lose some. Sure as shit 90% of the schedule is gonna nickel and dime you. When you know someone appreciates the work and understands what actually is going on, take the money with pride. I’ve spent hours pulling on ropes to secure trees just for a little control. Daniel didn’t send the climber up there cold, he secured it from every angle. It’s great what people can cherry pick from a half hour video.
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"Get yours" is a great mentality Jem. Even if it involves getting yours on the back of the underpaid climber who assumed all the risk. Fella should of walk with $1000-$1500 for doing that job. We all know Daniel was not gonna do it. I work for a fella up in the Truckee/Tahoe area a few times a year. He lines up a bunch of removals and I get 40% for my my time.

When Daniel titles his vid "$10,000 tree I did for $6000' he best not show us smashed stuff and side loaded lowering devices. Combine that with some Daniel double-speak and a few pages of shit slinging is to be expected.
 
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rico said:
"Get yours" is a great mentality Jem. Even if it involves getting yours on the back of the underpaid climber who assumed all the risk. Fella should of walk with $1000-$1500 for doing that job. We all know Daniel was not gonna do it. I work for a fella up in the Truckee/Tahoe area a few times a year. He lines up a bunch of removals and I get 40% for my my time.

When Daniel titles his vid "$10,000 tree I did for $6000' he best not show us smashed stuff and side loaded lowering devices. Combine that with some Daniel double-speak and a few pages of shit slinging is to be expected.
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1000-1500? What can he levitate the tree to the dump? He wasn’t dumping shit into the grcs and it wasn’t his only line on the tree. It was a tricky job and he went outside the box. Like he said it’s never used. And if it’s damaged he just made 6gs to buy another. Score
 
He even told the climber don’t worry about the fence just go up and come down. You want him climbing to tips and roping on a compromised tree
 
Do you mean that its there is a savior-complex going? NO WAY. I Can't Believe That.


Some other guy took all the real risk, and the homeowner pays $6K for a $100,000 tree, or $1,000,000 tree, because we can all bid any number. Seems like the market was willing to bear $6K and some fence damage.
 
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