used a few ropes on this one

[Daniel]

Nothing catchy about that. Humbly and bluntly it just makes you looks like a hack.

I am guessing here but $10k for that tree sounds like a pass bid. So coming in under it isn’t much to brag about. If you are looking for more views and popularity you won’t get it down the road your on.

If I had just wanted to come in under it I would have bid 9500... I came in at 60% of the other bid... The energy on that job was as calm as could be.. We all just took it slow and easy, I thought it through well. This is actually the first job that I ever diagramed out the rigging plan on paper.

and got lucky that we could make a straight pull from the driveway with the truck. There were lots of lower limbs interfering with the lines to the truck, but they were all small enough that with a few resets, the lines pulled right into position. That was something I hadn't considered possible when I gave the bid...

It was nice to not have any pressure about the $$ on this job. Those of you who own a tree service, imagine how nice your life would be if you never had to stress about productivity and bringing a job in on time to meet the budget...

l've been cleaning the HO's gutter for decades and have done some fairly big tree work for him some years back... The last tree I bid on was a big oak in his front yard near the driveway and the house.. Last year or maybe the year before. I put 2,000 on the tree and never heard back from him. The stump is still there and looks kind of fresh... so guessing he got a cheaper price. Probably that same person put 10K on this job. Makes sense he would have called the same guy.

 

[rico]

Your last 7-8 post display how messed up you really are Daniel. I encourage you to go back and read them buddy. You literally just told us that you don’t like to talk about money after naming your vid $10,000 tree for $6000. You just can’t ever seem to get your story fucking straight. What’s the deal with that Daniel?

You continually post vids and pics of subpar cutting, questionable practices and broken shit, as if educated eyes are not gonna be viewing them around here. When called to task you first begin with your braggadocio bullshit, then follow it up with trying to blow a bunch of smoke up our asses (dishonesty).

I offered up a list of things I felt were a problem in your vid, and instead of discussing the merits of my issues with your work you chose to argue about your statement that those trees were 120-150 ft. You and I know damn well those trees were not 120-150 ft. I have spent my entire life staring at 150 ft trees, so it’s probably best if you let that one go buddy.

The bottom line is you have a real issue with being truthful, and as such you just seem to dig a deeper hole with every new post. I certainly don’t wish you any ill will Daniel, but please go get some fucking help with your honesty issues.

 

[owScott]

400 feet of boom wouldn't have even been close on this tree, if you were planning on putting it in the street...

400 feet of boom wouldn't have even been close on this tree, if you were planning on putting it in the street...

Edit.. just checked Google maps and going by the measure of their scale it was about 660 feet from road to road, with the tree being pretty close to dead center. SO probably 300-320' from the nearest road. the neighbor's side was steep uphill from the road and either way you probably would have had to pick over the roof... And how long does it take to schedule a 450 ton crane??? I was there the next day...

That's a fair response. Could have been the same problem with the other crane bid though. My point is the 10k crane bid wasn't reasonable, so using 10k for a point of reference seems off. 2nd point is what I am hearing is the extreme risk validated the extremely high price, were you that unsure of the out come? Because the padding you put in the bid for risk, about $4000 worth IMO, wouldnt cover the cost of damage. Seems like a bad decision from a business perspective. To be clear I would have done it just how you did it even if the tree didn't stand up I would have tied into another tree and pieced/lowered pieces from the oak. If I thought it was that likely to do damage I would have secured it many ways and waited for a crane.

 

[evo]

I’m just going to to drop this and then I’m out.
This wasn’t a instructional video, claiming advanced techniques or any other such crap. It’s prety obvious there is a hunger for attention, and this is best ignored. I doubt anyone is going to make life changing behavioral advancements from online banter.

No one but the customer or the industry as a whole is going to be harmed by this video and point of view. This behavior has gone on for as long as I’ve been paying attention it’s only gotten worse over the years, because it’s been fed..

Just imagine if this customer found this thread! That would be priceless karma!

 

[Daniel]

Your last 7-8 post display how messed up you really are Daniel. I encourage you to go back and read them buddy. You literally just told us that you don’t like to talk about money after naming your vid $10,000 tree for $6000. You just can’t ever seem to get your story fucking straight. What’s the deal with that Daniel?

You continually post vids and pics of subpar cutting, questionable practices and broken shit, as if educated eyes are not gonna be viewing them around here. When called to task you first begin with your braggadocio bullshit, then follow it up with trying to blow a bunch of smoke up our asses (dishonesty).

I offered up a list of things I felt were a problem in your vid, and instead of discussing the merits of my issues with your work you chose to argue about your statement that those trees were 120-150 ft. You and I know damn well those trees were not 120-150 ft. I have spent my entire life staring at 150 ft trees, so it’s probably best if you let that one go buddy.

The bottom line is you have a real issue with being truthful, and as such you just seem to dig a deeper hole with every new post. I certainly don’t wish you any ill will Daniel, but please go get some fucking help with your honesty issues.

How many tiomes do I have to answer a critiques before you get it????
OK let's dance this again...

2. I would suggest that moving this tree 30-35 feet was totally unnessesary, and actually dangerous. Let remember what that stump and root system looked like folks. Moving it that far put a lot of stress on the already compromised stump, and the vertical crack in the butt log. All that was really needed was to clear it from the other tree, and keep tension on it.

Primary objective was to protect the neighbor's house. Secondary objective was to make the job as easy as possible for the climber.... The further stood up it was the easier it was going to be for the climber to bomb everything without the chance of something hanging up in the chestnut oak, or taking a bad swing or bounce into the house. That said, I would have kept pulling it about 5' less than it actually got pulled up, but I was obliging another climber who i do a lot of stump grinding for. It was the type of situation where I didn't want to totally blow the guy's suggestion off, but I also wouldn't have taken it any further than I thought reasonable for the climber... That climber took a pass on the tree... My thoughts on how far to stand the tree up were strictly about where is the best position for the tree that would make it as safe and easy for the climber. I was not worried about the base of the tree becoming destabilized from the lift...

Your concept to strap the tree to 35' or whatever you suggested would have been a complete waste of time.. one strap at the base would have been fine, if needed, but even that wasn't needed... I understand the forces that cause a trunk to split like that... The tree could only split up the trunk further if it moved down (more into the fall).... As soon as the tree began to lift, any pressure that would have split the trunk was reduced. By the time it was stood up, the crack had closed and strapping it would not have created any more stability in the anchored side.. (that's what mean by nonsense... it just doesn't make sense that you would think strapping this tree was needed.. you either don't understand the force that was causing that trunk to split or just have a paranoia about any split trunk or both)
3. Its hard to tell, but judging by the very steep rope angles it sure looks like the pick points on the guy lines were way too low. Running guy lines at 360% wasn't really an option here so you really needed to get those guy line as high as humanly possible. Guy line pick points above their tie off point is best case scenario. Setting your guy lines that low with those steep angles makes it very easy for slack to get into the system if the tree starts to move. When that happens your fucked. She's gone!

You can take another look at the video and see that one of the two side lines was set in a very high crotch through the beech... not quite at the same height as the tie off to the leaner, but close, then run on a steep angle to the ground. the other side was set at a fairly steep angle as you note, but somewhat less than the angle used to guy telephone poles, which I BELIEVE is the minimum angle recommended for guying trees with ground anchors. As such I like to make that lines in such situations are at most that steep (i think its 32-35 degrees)... Both those side lines were brand new 200' true blue (with plenty of stretch)... At no time was there any slack (sag) in the true blue side lines.. While it may look from the video that we only did a few rounds of ratcheting up the lines, it was in reality more like 15-20 rounds... truck, GRCS, then both side lines. As such there was never a lot of movement in the tree at any given time. There is far too much stretch in the true blue to allow a couple feet of movement to take the stretch out of the lines.. They just got slightly less tight...

4. Not Demanding that your climber was tied into a nearby tree for the entirety of the job was malpractice. Straight up! Whats the life of a courageous young climber worth? $300?

I've worked with that climber before on some big trees and he knows his way around a tree.. I wasn't on site when he got there, but I had preset a throw line in one of the lower limbs (if you call 70' low) on the tulip.... If he had wanted to tie into another tree I would have helped him do so, but neither of us felt it was necessary. I say that without reservation as I set all that rigging up personally and had plenty of time during the day on day two to observe the tree before the climber got to the job. There was a fair wind blowing and during the higher gusts , the other trees were moving trunk swaying about, but not our tree.. ZERO movement int he trunk.. only the tips above the lines.. this tree could have withstood a huge gust.

That said, I think he could have used the high crotch in the beech that we had set on of the side lines in, as a tie in point for his climbing line, after the side line had been untied from the tulip. It would have been easy to pull a climbing line through that crotch with the true blue, or even use the true blue, as it was a brand new line..... Instead he used a throw line to set a line in the big oak... It was more directly set over the work, but a lot less stable than the beech... looked like a lot of bounce and movement... But he was in the tree, it was his call, and we didn't get a chance to make a plan before he ascended..

5. Not taking the few moments necessary to strap up the first 30-40 ft of that vertically cracked butt log was more of the same. Laziness? Ignorance? Malpractice? You tell me.

6. The side loading issue with the lowering device is big. These thing are designed to be vertically top loaded, and using them in a side-wash scenario is asking for trouble. If something goes south on you, your device isn’t gonna do its job and it simple rotate around the tree it is attached to. Not a good thing when someone’s life, or someone’s home is on the line.

I've already responded to this "issue" and explained exactly what happened.. TWICE... did you read those ???? Let me be a little more clear.. The first bull rope set up in the GRCS was run through an overhead pulley as shown in the video... That was only loosened and removed after the entire top of the tree was out.. By that time there wasn't a lot of front weight left as the trunk was fairly straight. We needed to get the GRCS pull line and the line running to the pick up truck removed before making the next cut. Both lines were set at the same tie off point in the tree. We slacked the GRCS line first, and used the GRCS to tighten one of the two lower support lines that the climber had set when he spiked up the trunk... At that point, I thought there wasn't going to be a lot of force on this line as it was one of two and the tree had no top and was fairly straight. So I just lightly snugged it up with the GRCS .. not much force, just get it tight and a little more... That's when I put the camera on it.. Note: I wasn't worried about the machine spinning on the tree, as much as knowing that the fairleads on the GRCS are underbuilt and can't take side loading.

The next move was to pull the truck up and loosen that line... When I started driving forward, the climber called for me to stop and said he wanted the line in the GRCS tighter. At that point, I pulled the truck back to tighten that line and then removed the (new lower) line from the grcs, ran it through the overhead redirect pulley and put it back on the GRCS and then cranked it up tight to support the tree to the climbers liking.. then slacked off the line to the truck at which point he could make the next cut...

PS... I never lie on this or any other forum... I may occasionally make a mistake or forget something , but would never intentionally lie and make up a story... telling the truth means a whole lot more to me than what any of you thinks or says...

 

[Daniel]

That's a fair response. Could have been the same problem with the other crane bid though. My point is the 10k crane bid wasn't reasonable, so using 10k for a point of reference seems off. 2nd point is what I am hearing is the extreme risk validated the extremely high price, were you that unsure of the out come? Because the padding you put in the bid for risk, about $4000 worth IMO, wouldnt cover the cost of damage. Seems like a bad decision from a business perspective. To be clear I would have done it just how you did it even if the tree didn't stand up I would have tied into another tree and pieced/lowered pieces from the oak. If I thought it was that likely to do damage I would have secured it many ways and waited for a crane.

I don't know whether that was a reasonable price for the other company or he was trying to take a pass.. We've got a lot of monster ash trees (11% of all trees in this area) around here. some 50-60" dbh.. and they all just started dying last year.. Everyone that's got a real business is swamped ... Supply and demand has brought prices way up.. Other guy may have thought he was going to need a big crane.. maybe cost $4-5,000 or more... I've never used one that big but I have heard guys talking about those kind of tickets.... Also using a crane on this tree was no cake walk... Climber would probably have to stay tied into the ball and ride out with each piece... and how much could you take with the final pick to get if off the chestnut oak.. Not much, and no way to stabilize that big of a leaning trunk... The more I think about it the uglier it seems.. I could only just barely see the driveway from the backyard.. Probably a good 100-150' from the drive to the top of the tree and more to the stump... How big of a crane would you need to being 100' away from the top and after brushing out the top, take the whole tree in one cut from the ground..

I don't know of another company around here that would have tried to stand this tree up though they are probably out there, but surely not easy to find..Anyone small would have walked.. anybody big would have been at least 5-6K. One thing for sure is that I have paid my dues in this business...

Client still owes me 5 of the 6 so I'll have a chance to talk to him about it... was he happy with the price and the work, who the other company is etc.. I'm also going to offer that he can donate the $5K to the hunger project (https://www.thp.org/) that way he can feel even better about the tax deduction and saving some lives in the process. the hunger project does not give one bite of food away.. they train locals to teach others (mostly women) in their communities how to become self sustaining economically with the idea that when women have economic means children don't starve to death. They've been doing some great work and I try to give them at least $4K/year...

 

[Daniel]

1- If you decide the person you're speaking to can't understand the word "condescending", maybe employ simpler terms to communicate effectively with that person. Explaining "condescending" in parentheses after using it, is very much condescending. I'm not sure where you were heading with that.
I'm well aware of what it's "deadlift rating" is, but it doesn't change how much force you can generate with the device. At any rate, it's not 1800 lbs By the way ... this bet is worth $5000, not $1000 ...
If you're applying a MA inline with the GRCS you're exceeding these abilities anyways

What exactly do you mean by generating force with the machine..... give me a long enough lever and I can lift the whole world???? What matters is the amount of pulling force on the line. I would think that's what is meant by dead lift.. your suggestion that the 44:1 means that it's 44x the force a man can pull on that handle with is mistaken, though I had the same thought myself when i first got the machine.. You would think that seems reasonable but the 44:1 rating (so I heard) is related to the internal gears of the machine . I Remember hearing 1,800 lbs, which evo has confirmed (THANK God For Evo).. Mine is definitely an old machine... early 200's I think, but would have to check... I'd be very surprised if that machine exceeded 2,500 lbs of lift. I do have a dyno so could check it out pretty easily.. The wesspur website says the GRCS has 3,000 lbs of dead lift... Your math 44x150=6,600 is way out of line with reality...

 

[colb]

One useful thing to do with the grcs winch is to just look at the bolts that affix it to the aluminum plate. I am sure that Greg sized them appropriately. Then look at the frame that you strap onto the tree. Two different animals. The frame is clearly designed for the bollard and is way over-engineered for the winch. But, you don't really think like that when you've got the capstan winch on there because it is surrounded by all that thick iron. Look at those plate bolts before you decide what to lift with the grcs. Just to be clear, I'm a fan of the grcs, so I'm not knocking it. Just saying that it has limits, like every other tool.

 

[rico]

The whole premise of your' $10000 tree for $6000" vid was that this trees stump was so compromised, and the butt log had such a big vertical crack that this was somehow a $10,000 gnarly type of tree. Ok then.

All of the sudden this $10,000 tree was no longer gnarly enough to demand your climber take the 2 minutes needed to get a proper tie in? You lay the blame in the climbers lap, but you are the big Hefe on this job, making the big $. This is ultimately your responsibility buddy. Nuff said!

Somehow it was no longer gnarly enough to take the few minutes needed to properly strap up the vertical crack? You go on to tell us that the forces that caused the crack were reduced. What you really did by yarding on that tree so hard was change those forces, with zero knowledge of how those new forces were going to react as you began dismantling this tree. Strapping split wood together is not a "concept' Daniel, but in fact a tried and true technique that has keep men from meeting their demise for many moons. I will take paranoia over laziness any day, thank you very much.

You can ramble on with excuses about your side washed GRCS, but the bottom line is you did it and we all saw it. Laziness or ignorance can be the only explanations.

You have just verified my suspicions that at least 4 of the 6 lines were set too low, with steep rope angles. I spent a few years climbing, topping and rigging spar poles for lift in the back end with big yarders in AK. Part of that process involved using hay wire to rig up serious guy wire setups, so I have a little understanding of what constitutes a good guy line setup. Your guy line setup in the vid had serious flaws, and was ripe for failure if that tree had decided to go down. Let’s all be thankful it didn’t.

So it was another climber who ended up passing on the job who forced you to yard on this tree so hard as to move it 35 ft. You admit to not wanting to pull it that hard, but did it anyway. Fucking priceless bro.

 

[Mowerr]

Sorry there's just no way to price trees without being there in person. No amount pictures or video will ever work

 

[rico]

One useful thing to do with the grcs winch is to just look at the bolts that affix it to the aluminum plate. I am sure that Greg sized them appropriately. Then look at the frame that you strap onto the tree. Two different animals. The frame is clearly designed for the bollard and is way over-engineered for the winch. But, you don't really think like that when you've got the capstan winch on there because it is surrounded by all that thick iron. Look at those plate bolts before you decide what to lift with the grcs. Just to be clear, I'm a fan of the grcs, so I'm not knocking it. Just saying that it has limits, like every other tool.

Sheered off cog gears is why my GRCS serves as a chalk block for the grapple skidder! Old Cornbread loves having such a shiny expensive tool under his tire. ME not so much.

 

[colb]

Sheered off cog gears is why my GRCS serves as a chalk block for the grapple skidder! Old Cornbread loves having such a shiny expensive tool under his tire. ME not so much.

To me, it's similar to the ART devices, and wire core fliplines. If the parts are inside, I might have inspection issues related to accessibility or motivation.

 

[rico]

When we broke our GRCS we all knew it, and we had no doubt what had just happened. Looking inside was just verification.

 

[rico]

Sorry there's just no way to price trees without being there in person. No amount pictures or video will ever work

Done it many times. Missed a few, but they usually end up being pretty darn close when it’s all said and done.

 

[New2trees]

Sheered off cog gears is why my GRCS serves as a chalk block for the grapple skidder! Old Cornbread loves having such a shiny expensive tool under his tire. ME not so much.

Rico, is it a cost effective to repair?

 

[rico]

Never looked into it. I bought this thing on a whim a long time ago. We broke it within the 1st year, and I threw it in the shed. I went back to using my trusty Hobbs devices, and never gave the broke down GRCS a second thought. Fuck that thing. I know 2 other local guys who’s GRCS met the same fate, and as far as I know they are still sitting around busted. Maybe we should combine all 3 and see if we end up with one usable device? I would donate mine to the cause. This is Hobbs country and that’s what most guys run around here. They just work!

 

[owScott]

I don't know whether that was a reasonable price for the other company or he was trying to take a pass.. We've got a lot of monster ash trees (11% of all trees in this area) around here. some 50-60" dbh.. and they all just started dying last year.. Everyone that's got a real business is swamped ... Supply and demand has brought prices way up.. Other guy may have thought he was going to need a big crane.. maybe cost $4-5,000 or more... I've never used one that big but I have heard guys talking about those kind of tickets.... Also using a crane on this tree was no cake walk... Climber would probably have to stay tied into the ball and ride out with each piece... and how much could you take with the final pick to get if off the chestnut oak.. Not much, and no way to stabilize that big of a leaning trunk... The more I think about it the uglier it seems.. I could only just barely see the driveway from the backyard.. Probably a good 100-150' from the drive to the top of the tree and more to the stump... How big of a crane would you need to being 100' away from the top and after brushing out the top, take the whole tree in one cut from the ground..

I don't know of another company around here that would have tried to stand this tree up though they are probably out there, but surely not easy to find..Anyone small would have walked.. anybody big would have been at least 5-6K. One thing for sure is that I have paid my dues in this business...

Client still owes me 5 of the 6 so I'll have a chance to talk to him about it... was he happy with the price and the work, who the other company is etc.. I'm also going to offer that he can donate the $5K to the hunger project (https://www.thp.org/) that way he can feel even better about the tax deduction and saving some lives in the process. the hunger project does not give one bite of food away.. they train locals to teach others (mostly women) in their communities how to become self sustaining economically with the idea that when women have economic means children don't starve to death. They've been doing some great work and I try to give them at least $4K/year...

Never looked into it. I bought this thing on a whim a long time ago. We broke it within the 1st year, and I threw it in the shed. I went back to using my trusty Hobbs devices, and never gave the broke down GRCS a second thought. Fuck that thing. I know 2 other local guys who’s GRCS met the same fate, and as far as I know they are still sitting around busted. Maybe we should combine all 3 and see if we end up with one usable device? I would donate mine to the cause. This is Hobbs country and that’s what most guys run around here. They just work!

Rico, I agree 100%. I own a GRCS, expensive and more complicated. Never should have gotten rid of my Hobbs. This industry keeps reinventing the wheel. WTF I keep screwing these replies up. Good thing I don't use this damn thing to make a living

 

[rico]

I don't know of another company around here that would have tried to stand this tree up though they are probably out there, but surely not easy to find..Anyone small would have walked.. anybody big would have been at least 5-6K. One thing for sure is that I have paid my dues in this business...

I live in an area that has a few species that are very prone to stump/root failure, with the Firs being the worst culprit. The soil in our Redwood forests is pretty sandy, and when it gets saturated it really turns to shit. Throw a little wind into the mix and these bigger over-ripe Firs can really start raining down, crushing everything in sight, and occasionally killing people.

As such I remove quit a few Firs that have varying degrees of instability, and I usually see at least one guy line scenario Fir tree every winter. My recent "West of the Sunset" vid was a little Fir tree at the edge of a very steep cut the had begun to move this fall. It died very suddenly and developed a side lean over their only access road and was threatening some infrastructure, so we got it early before it became really unstable. i felt there was no need for guy lines on this one , so I simply treaded lightly and got her down.

Whenever we see a tree that warrants guy lining we try to work with the existing lean, and never yard on an already compromised tree if at all possible. We always try and get at least 180% of coverage in our guy line system, and more if we can. Obviously this isn't always possible, but we do what we can. The degree of coverage of your guy line system is much more important than how many guy lines you have in the system. 6 lines with 80% of coverage is simply not a good set up if maximum stability is your goal.

Once the tree feels secure you need to do all you can to keep the movement to a bare minimum during removal. Simple things like pounding wedges instead of using tagline/pull-lines when chunking down wood can make a huge difference. Again, anything you can do to mitigate movement.

We have had a very wet windy winter here and the Firs are beginning to drop like flies around here. Many times the 1st will cause a chain reaction that can be fairly scary. If its not raining to hard today I will try and get some pics to show the size/scale of these Firs when they fail.

Besides an ongoing Cedar removal/milling job up near Shaver Lake, all I see in my near future are Fir removals, so the chances of running into a guy line scenario is fairly high. If so, I will do my best to get my buddy to shoot a vid of how we deal with an unstable tree. Nothing special or revolutionary here. Just tried and true shit that really helps mitigate risk, and take some of the pucker factor out of wreaking trees that are on the move.

 

[Daniel]

Never looked into it. I bought this thing on a whim a long time ago. We broke it within the 1st year, and I threw it in the shed. I went back to using my trusty Hobbs devices, and never gave the broke down GRCS a second thought. Fuck that thing. I know 2 other local guys who’s GRCS met the same fate, and as far as I know they are still sitting around busted. Maybe we should combine all 3 and see if we end up with one usable device? I would donate mine to the cause. This is Hobbs country and that’s what most guys run around here. They just work!

Did your GRCS break from over cranking... or shock loading the winch????

 

[rico]

Shock load.