jim454
Participating member
- Location
- The land of Utopia
Especially when you "grab the rabbit by the ears" to dress the knot. Classic!
timber hitch for rigging
- Thread starter double_d
- Start date
- Location
- nj
it looked different when i looked at jack bowline. here i thought i was slick adding another twist. well i guess i was because i had no idea of a jack bowline. the same way i used the term drop crotch to explain catching a top to itself with just rope. i asked some guys at work today to. i said tell me what you think a drop crotch is. they all said when you catch something to itself. so i dont feel totally stupid. i guess there is alot of tech terms i dont know exist.but i really am a seasoned tree monkey. thanks for taking the time to teach me these proper terms guys. i really do appreciate it.
- Location
- Springfield MO
Hilarious! That's how I was taught to tie a bowline in bootcamp in the Navy. I had spent HOURS at sea learning to speed tie it an when joe climber guy threw a piece of line to me my first day on the job and told me to tie a bowline it was in my hands only a couple seconds then back in the air to him with his jaw wide open. Of course I knew NOTHING else so I have to laugh at myself...
- Location
- Springfield MO
In '95 I had been studying the timber hitch for a long time before putting it into service only as an anchoring point for a block (not a pully). Once as I progressed through a large removal I began swinging loads into my settup from out of its' fulcrum point. This caused the timber hitch to rotate around the attatchment point, lose purchase...and fail with an 800lb log sailing through the air at 50'. Crew leapt for their lives but were unhurt. I didn't tie, dress or set the hitch incorrectly at all, oh no sree bob. I had USED it incorrectly. An instructor at a rigging class pointed out that a timber hitch when t.d.s. and USED correctly should only be loaded at a 90degree angle from which the hitch is tied. He also lifted the block straight up and demonstrated a lowering scenario and said "this hitch should ONLY be loaded along this plane. NEVER sideload a timber hitch. He then demonstrated the cow hitch with a better half. It hogs up a lot of line but will generally tolerate a side load. This is the first I've ever posted on the subject so please forgive. Kristian
Riggs
Participating member
- Location
- Bryn Mawr , Pa.
" This is the first I've ever posted on the subject so please forgive. Kristian "
Don't worry about it , at least you know the downfalls of the hitch , unlike treeclimber who says it takes too long to tie and jacked the thread with his bowline bs. I took down a 100ft. Hickory yesterday. I need things to keep me amused so I tied every other limb with a running bowline and a timber hitch (4 wrap) each with a marl in front of it .I tied them at both in about the same time, sometimes the limbs characteristics made one slower than the other. The one thing that really stood out was that the ground men always untied the timber hitch faster, every time . If you don't know what your talking about don't give advise on the subject . And if you take that the wrong way drink some Jack Daniels , tie a jacked bowline and go Jack ......
Don't worry about it , at least you know the downfalls of the hitch , unlike treeclimber who says it takes too long to tie and jacked the thread with his bowline bs. I took down a 100ft. Hickory yesterday. I need things to keep me amused so I tied every other limb with a running bowline and a timber hitch (4 wrap) each with a marl in front of it .I tied them at both in about the same time, sometimes the limbs characteristics made one slower than the other. The one thing that really stood out was that the ground men always untied the timber hitch faster, every time . If you don't know what your talking about don't give advise on the subject . And if you take that the wrong way drink some Jack Daniels , tie a jacked bowline and go Jack ......
- Location
- NJ
Muggs
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Canuckistan
If you're looking for a great rigging knot that is easier to untie than the running bow and more secure than the timber hitch, check out my post on the Daisy Chain knot. It is far and away my favourite rigging knot.
- Location
- nj
nice did they teach you guys spilceing in the navy. i want to learn that probally hard as hell
TheTreeSpyder
Branched out member
- Location
- Florida>>> USA
ABoK has 2 different chapters back to back. The first is for pulls on spar/rail perpendicular to the mount, and the other is for inline/ pairallell pulls. (IMLHO) This is because these are 2 specifically different lacing strategies. If a line is intersecting across a host load/ spar/ mount, then as the line meets inline to the load etc., the lacing is leveraged across improperly. But, then conversely, if the Standing meets the spar etc. at a perpendicular angle, then the lacing is pulled inline.. The most powerfull locking nip on the Timber hitch is opposite the Standing, where the lacing locks into the mount most intensely.
By pulling on the lacing perpendicular to the spar mount, we are pulling inline on the fiercest nip / lock, and delivering force directly to said lock, in an unchanging direction. But, when the lacing is pulled at angle not perpendicular to mount, we are not delivering full force intensity inline to this 'locking mechanism' but rather across it, and have potential for changing direction(as any leveraged angle).
A preceding Half or Marl, corrects this by giving an inline lock(per legs of force entering into and exiting Marl / Half being inline to each other) to most of the force when lacing is pulled inline to mount, then passing only buffered force to the Timber Hitch. This does still let the Timber pull at leveraged angle per that force passed to it from Marl/ Half, but not per the initiating force of Standing holding the load.. This configuration also gives 2 grabs on the mount.
So, when using a Timber to lower on single line, i see 2 faults (mainly). The load will probably not be balanced, so will shift to be inline to the line, thereby pull the Timber at a non-inline direction. Or, if load is balanced, so that the rope meets the Load/ spar perpendicular, so that the Timber can lock inline properly, the load can 'float'/ move at different angles and give potential problems(as each end on either side of the hitching are ballast for each other). The lock of the Timber is powered by the force ont he lacing at the time, so any shifting, jostling can concievably give problems.
2 legs of line can help 'balance' this and still use Timber meeting at perpendiuclar angle properly, but would not be failsafe to each other. Back to a single line, a spyder leg could work with a spreader bar, to get the legs to meet perpendicular to the spar, but this would have to have a long nose/ sharp teepee to not place too much leveraged force on the spanning board.
i like small slings choked and then krabbed to eye of rigging line(spliced permanent or DBY temp. eye), sometimes even with preceding Marl/ Half before sling. Generally placed at some taper or branching. In rope only and no such imperfection, i might make a small humboldt for line to bed in.
Dis'claimer: The above is jest my soft imagery on how things work, my own opinion, and might not have any bare-ing on any facts at all.
By pulling on the lacing perpendicular to the spar mount, we are pulling inline on the fiercest nip / lock, and delivering force directly to said lock, in an unchanging direction. But, when the lacing is pulled at angle not perpendicular to mount, we are not delivering full force intensity inline to this 'locking mechanism' but rather across it, and have potential for changing direction(as any leveraged angle).
A preceding Half or Marl, corrects this by giving an inline lock(per legs of force entering into and exiting Marl / Half being inline to each other) to most of the force when lacing is pulled inline to mount, then passing only buffered force to the Timber Hitch. This does still let the Timber pull at leveraged angle per that force passed to it from Marl/ Half, but not per the initiating force of Standing holding the load.. This configuration also gives 2 grabs on the mount.
So, when using a Timber to lower on single line, i see 2 faults (mainly). The load will probably not be balanced, so will shift to be inline to the line, thereby pull the Timber at a non-inline direction. Or, if load is balanced, so that the rope meets the Load/ spar perpendicular, so that the Timber can lock inline properly, the load can 'float'/ move at different angles and give potential problems(as each end on either side of the hitching are ballast for each other). The lock of the Timber is powered by the force ont he lacing at the time, so any shifting, jostling can concievably give problems.
2 legs of line can help 'balance' this and still use Timber meeting at perpendiuclar angle properly, but would not be failsafe to each other. Back to a single line, a spyder leg could work with a spreader bar, to get the legs to meet perpendicular to the spar, but this would have to have a long nose/ sharp teepee to not place too much leveraged force on the spanning board.
i like small slings choked and then krabbed to eye of rigging line(spliced permanent or DBY temp. eye), sometimes even with preceding Marl/ Half before sling. Generally placed at some taper or branching. In rope only and no such imperfection, i might make a small humboldt for line to bed in.
Dis'claimer: The above is jest my soft imagery on how things work, my own opinion, and might not have any bare-ing on any facts at all.
- Location
- Springfield MO
I always love your posts. I always go back and read them word for word while imagining working loads and how knots perform in harmony with them and all the other forces. Your use of terms is just excellent...you ol knot tyre you
- Location
- Springfield MO
Treeclimber 1 yes we did some splicing but it was mostly three strand line. I missed a week long wire splicing class because of an injury. THAT would have been cool. The splicing I did there was with (for lol) older, more seasoned sailors who's teaching skills were firmly planted up their back sides. Glad to see you posting.
- Location
- nj
I never knocked either hitch. I was just saying i could tie a bowline faster than i could tie a TH you started your little contest BS. However, i wrap more than 4 times. Witch would take a little longer. As far as the jacked bowline, i was talking about a knot i just tried one day if you could read. I did not know it was actually a documented knot. So if you do not like it do not read it. Instead, if filling the post with your whining BS i was having a conversation with somebody and learned alittle unlike you know it all.
- Location
- nj
Im from jersey i would love to learn how to splice. Unlike some people out here im not out here for drama. I just like to talk and learn about tree work. I know what i can do and what i have done as do the people i work with. Thanks for taking the time to post back whiz.
- Location
- nj
Wow, that is a lot of reading. I myself mostly use the TH for roping wood tying it butt heavy. I set the lock inline with the crotch pulley etc.But as i said before im old school i have a lot of experience with just a rope and saddle and natural crotches right down to the taunt line hitch. I just switched to the hitch climber setup and treemotion saddle. However, im learning the new wave talking to you people and i appreciate it thank you
Riggs
Participating member
- Location
- Bryn Mawr , Pa.
Allrighty now , I see you reply to yourself . I assume you are repying to my post , I still don't know what your talking about .
"So if you do not like it do not read it. Instead, if filling the post with your whining BS i was having a conversation with somebody and learned alittle unlike you know it all. "
What did you learn ? you learned what you didn't know . I don't know it all , but I know more than you ,and I know you don't know what you don't know. In this thread you talked about everything but the timber hitch . The only drama is you talking sh*t , if you want to learn , than listen . or read s l o w l y .
"So if you do not like it do not read it. Instead, if filling the post with your whining BS i was having a conversation with somebody and learned alittle unlike you know it all. "
What did you learn ? you learned what you didn't know . I don't know it all , but I know more than you ,and I know you don't know what you don't know. In this thread you talked about everything but the timber hitch . The only drama is you talking sh*t , if you want to learn , than listen . or read s l o w l y .
- Location
- nj
listen its easy to talk a tree down i could run circles around you during a removal. what i was talking about learning was about the jacked bowline,so i think you need to read slow also that came up while talking about the timber hitch, and the regular running bowline,History has taught me the ones that do all the bragging no s$$t.you come off with your attitude about doing it faster. The only thing your quick at is running your mouth. im not out here to argue so im ending this here. There is a lot of good people out here with good experiences and advice. You sound like a spoiled kid “ I can do it faster…….and……and …..I can” grow up loser I wont be answering back so have at it. These other people arent out here for this
knudeNoggin
New member
[ QUOTE ]
The Timberhitch is as safe or unsafe as any other knot or hitch. It needs to be tied properly, dressed and set.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not so: the hitch is more likely to come untied than other
knots, such as the RB (given that the Bowline is well done,
maybe using a secure extension/version).
[ QUOTE ]
The timber hitch also retains 90% of the rope strength, whereas the running bowline retains around 65% ? (going from memory on the RB strength loss, someone correct me if Im wrong). This would be due to less amount of sharp bends in the line.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't believe this: they are both, essentially, choker
hitches, and it's at the point of contact with the main line
that the knot will break, IMO.
[ QUOTE ]
Ive always thought the TH was the coolest hitch due to its simplicity. I think Im gonna start using it more often.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think that Ashley's recommendation make a full turn (or
more!) around the mainline before dogging/tucking the end
should be done--this will give a sort of friction grip
on the mainline, should improve strength, and also mitigate
loosening when slack or pulling out on hard loading.
*kN*
The Timberhitch is as safe or unsafe as any other knot or hitch. It needs to be tied properly, dressed and set.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not so: the hitch is more likely to come untied than other
knots, such as the RB (given that the Bowline is well done,
maybe using a secure extension/version).
[ QUOTE ]
The timber hitch also retains 90% of the rope strength, whereas the running bowline retains around 65% ? (going from memory on the RB strength loss, someone correct me if Im wrong). This would be due to less amount of sharp bends in the line.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't believe this: they are both, essentially, choker
hitches, and it's at the point of contact with the main line
that the knot will break, IMO.
[ QUOTE ]
Ive always thought the TH was the coolest hitch due to its simplicity. I think Im gonna start using it more often.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think that Ashley's recommendation make a full turn (or
more!) around the mainline before dogging/tucking the end
should be done--this will give a sort of friction grip
on the mainline, should improve strength, and also mitigate
loosening when slack or pulling out on hard loading.
*kN*
knudeNoggin
New member
[ QUOTE ]
During a recent meeting with a person I highly admire a statement was made: a "knot is either 100% right, or 100% wrong". A sentiment I totally agree with.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is utter rubbish! (It's a paraphrase of Ashley.)
(reminds me of Bush's "with us or against us")
It should be obvious from a moment's reflection that a great
many knots can be seen as such "(not 100% right) = 100% wrong"
knots--e.g., the Cowboy vs. Common Bowline, different only
by which way the end is taken around the mainline in collaring
it (the Cowboy resists pulling apart on ring-loading).
For some common knots (e.g., the Fig.8 eyeknot, also bend),
one cannot usually find any specific tying instruction,
and one can regularly see variances in its tying, done for
decades, and mostly w/o noted difference in behavior.
[ QUOTE ]
The reason there are many different knots is that there are many different situations.
[/ QUOTE ]
But there are many who deal with those situations using only
a KISS small set of knots; and that can be effective, even
if arguably not ideal.
[ QUOTE ]
... forces are so great that cambial and bark tissue can become strongly embedded within the knots. If this happens on a running bowline, it can interfer with the ability to untie it. The timberhitch backed up with a marl or half-hitch will never experience that problem.
[/ QUOTE ]
And there's a gem of helpful insight unlikely to be gleaned
from the literature--long live the Net, & The Buzz !
Thanks, Dave,
*kN*
During a recent meeting with a person I highly admire a statement was made: a "knot is either 100% right, or 100% wrong". A sentiment I totally agree with.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is utter rubbish! (It's a paraphrase of Ashley.)
(reminds me of Bush's "with us or against us")
It should be obvious from a moment's reflection that a great
many knots can be seen as such "(not 100% right) = 100% wrong"
knots--e.g., the Cowboy vs. Common Bowline, different only
by which way the end is taken around the mainline in collaring
it (the Cowboy resists pulling apart on ring-loading).
For some common knots (e.g., the Fig.8 eyeknot, also bend),
one cannot usually find any specific tying instruction,
and one can regularly see variances in its tying, done for
decades, and mostly w/o noted difference in behavior.
[ QUOTE ]
The reason there are many different knots is that there are many different situations.
[/ QUOTE ]
But there are many who deal with those situations using only
a KISS small set of knots; and that can be effective, even
if arguably not ideal.
[ QUOTE ]
... forces are so great that cambial and bark tissue can become strongly embedded within the knots. If this happens on a running bowline, it can interfer with the ability to untie it. The timberhitch backed up with a marl or half-hitch will never experience that problem.
[/ QUOTE ]
And there's a gem of helpful insight unlikely to be gleaned
from the literature--long live the Net, & The Buzz !
Thanks, Dave,
*kN*
