timber hitch for rigging

Re: treeclimber1

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Here's a typical set-up. A short clip taken from this afternoon. I had the gloves on for hauling myself up to that point....too sticky for tying knots though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KSbRseau6o

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Reg, I like your vids, they're great.

But your rigging in that video worries me mate, and it's your use of krabs, steel or not, that I respectfully question your use of.

You saw the dynamic force that your tied off leader hit your lowering trunk with, it was considerable. Had that krab been between those points and absorbed the brunt of that impact, it could have either failed or damaged it to the point of no longer being safe to use, particularly it's gate mechanism.

My question to you is why use a krab in such a dynamic situation with such crushing potential when a bull line tied off with a clove hitch locked off with a timber hitch could take the beating with far less chance of failure or vital equipment damage?

It aint logical mate, and in my opinion an unnecessary risk for a pro like you to take.

Respectfully,

jomoco
 
Re: treeclimber1

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I humbly suggest you guys read this article on leveraged krab gate fatalities.

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PPSSSSSTTTTT hey lulu!!!!!!! if you look at the pic of the letter you linked to. You'd see that the biners they are talking about are screw gate, plus the fact none of the gates where screwed close duuuhhhh.

Man you have to hate men with paper a holes. 1 uummm all and anyone climbing in trees are tought to use triple action self closing gates if attaching to saddle. 2 rigging is supposed to be atleast two action auto close gate. 3 screw gates should be screwed close, or pay the price.

Now crawl back to the cave you came out of and have fun in your own little safty world.

BYE!!
 
Re: treeclimber1

Reg, nice vid.

I must not be up to date, I thought you had a Hobbs Lowering device, but that in the vid didnt look like a Hobbs (but I could be wrong). Can you tell us a bit about the double bollards, and a bit about how that lever arm works to take up slack??
 
Re: treeclimber1

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My question to you is why use a krab in such a dynamic situation with such crushing potential when a bull line tied off with a clove hitch locked off with a timber hitch could take the beating with far less chance of failure or vital equipment damage?



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The two marls take the hit, not the Krab. When tied in such a way, ‘what ifs’ don’t enter the equation…..but without the marls, of course I would stick exclusively to knots.

The incentive is purely about efficiency, and I’m not talking about ‘rushing’ either….I guess you’d would have to watch my climbing style of access and movement in and around horizontals before deciding whether or not this preference is justified….that branch probably was a poor example to highlight this.

For the people who say “what’s an extra minute or 2 here and there etc?”….well minutes add up to hours throughout the course of a job, and those same folks are usually the first ones to be sat at home wondering why the phone isn’t ringing when work is short.

Like I said earlier, I’m not a teacher....otherwise probably much of the video content you refer to would also be judged far too risky to convey onto others, especially the crane work. But my style has evolved through solving problems….and from a commercial stand-point at least, this is clearly appealing to the companies who hire me. That’s the truth for what its worth!

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Reg, nice vid.

I must not be up to date, I thought you had a Hobbs Lowering device, but that in the vid didnt look like a Hobbs (but I could be wrong). Can you tell us a bit about the double bollards, and a bit about how that lever arm works to take up slack??


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There's a thread in 'rant and rave' Cory, most of it is positive. My Hobbs is for sale, pm me if you want it!
 
Re: treeclimber1

So if I'm understanding you right Reg, you're saying the the two lower cloves/marls would absorb the dynamic impact, leaving the Krab rope termination in an acceptable range of safety/protection?

No doubt that may be true say 98% of the time, but it's that remaining 2% of the time when murphy's law can be brutal in teaching you it's lesson as time goes by.

Rope terminations/lock-offs in heavy duty rigging dynamics are crucial to the safety of the crew, including you.

I was taught this important lesson the hardway catching big wood while removing dead cedars and pines on the lake arrowhead shoreline in CA.

My rigging block in the tree had 15 feet of 3/4 inch line on it. This allowed me to tie a few cloves before locking off with a timber hitch in 1-2 foot wood. But as I got into the 3 foot wood range, I only had enough rope for one C/H and T/H lockoff.

Now the safe and professional move in that situation would be to use a bigger block with a longer rope on it to catch that kinda weight with. But I wanted to get that big dog on the ground that day and prove my high production capabilities as a freelance sub-contractor.

When I got down into truly fat wood over 3 feet I was down to one timber hitch and a limited number of wraps to lock it off with. Figuring that 5 very tight wraps was sufficient to take the strain I kept going, big stupid mistake on my part. Fortunately for me I was wearing a modern 3 piece velcro/kevlar bull riding vest that day, because when those 5 wraps came undone at warp speed trying to catch that piece, it whipped around that big spar and hit me in the chest hard enough to knock all the wind out of me, as well as leave me black and bluish orange bruises around my back for weeks after. Had I not been wearing that vest I'm sure broken ribs rather than massive bruising would have been the outcome.

Fortunately I'm Irish, so the piece I lost like an idiot missed my hobbs, my groundmen, or anything vital. But I'd learned my lesson, I Took the rest of the day off to hunt down a 25 foot hank of bull line to finish that big dog with no more foolish mishaps. It gave the ground crew a chance to get caught up and get all the wood and brush onto the WW2 landing craft on the beach while I nursed my ego and bruises hunting down a hank of rope.

In bigwood catching dynamics, the forces are such that the steel edges of your block can effectively cut any rope or lanyard it comes into contact with under dynamic load.

Now that I'm almost 50 years old and far more orthopedicly challenged than I was in those days on lake arrowhead, I find I'm far more stubborn and deliberate about taking all the time I need to ensure my crews safety, with a huge emphasis on my own frail bones and cartilage.

Do the professional thing Reg, exnay the steel rope terminations in your dynamic big wood takedowns, it's the logical thing to do my friend.

Respectfully,

jomoco
 
Re: treeclimber1

jomoco, you just went from disparaging carabiner use to using a TH for sling rigging.....

For one thing, I'm sure that Reg, like me, doesn't use a biner for heavy rigging, especially butthitching wood.

However, for light rigging...as in branch lowering or tip tied wood with little or no shock loading, I have always and will continue to use 50kn rated steel crabs......but only in the interest of speed.

When one, and preferably two half hitches/marls are used, and then, the binered end is wrapped around the working line and clipped back to itself, the possible load on that biner in many many times lower than it would be if it were just wrapped once.....this or course also greatly reduces the sideloading...which is certainly not good. And, properly tied, the chance of gate loading is miniscule.

As far as lifeline use goes, yes there have been isolated incidents of gates opening.....which, imo, may all be related to things like improper biner tie offs, or sticky gates.

Enjoy that TLH, ya hear.......
 
Re: treeclimber1

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When I got down into truly fat wood over 3 feet I was down to one timber hitch and a limited number of wraps to lock it off with. Figuring that 5 very tight wraps was sufficient to take the strain I kept going, big stupid mistake on my part. Fortunately for me I was wearing a modern 3 piece velcro/kevlar bull riding vest that day, because when those 5 wraps came undone at warp speed trying to catch that piece, it whipped around that big spar and hit me in the chest hard enough to knock all the wind out of me, as well as leave me black and bluish orange bruises around my back for weeks after. Had I not been wearing that vest I'm sure broken ribs rather than massive bruising would have been the outcome.

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I'm glad you survived to tell the tale. 5 or 10 wraps, if they don’t extend past 180 degrees from where they started your not going to trap the rope properly….add some spin, slack or worse still – a hinged chunk that is tip tied and it’ll work its way out….I just find that a T.H is a faster knot to tie though, especially when reaching up high on a wide spar. But if there’s doubt, I’ll favour the running bowline!

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Do the professional thing Reg, exnay the steel rope terminations in your dynamic big wood takedowns, it's the logical thing to do my friend.


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I wouldn’t consider the branch in that video as big wood….If I were mad enough I could probably even pick it up. When I get into heavy stuff the krabs go back in the box, you need not worry about that. Thanks. Reg
 
Re: treeclimber1

I was trying to give an example of hasty improper rigging rope terminations failing under a dynamic load situation.

I like krabs as much as the next guy, but in my opinion they have a narrower range of applications in which they can be safely used in both dynamic rigging and lifeline attachments.

When the average joe sees a krab being used for rigging or lifeline purposes on a cool youtube video, he may not have the expertise to recognize the difference between a 50KN rated steel krab and a cheap spring loaded krab.

I wouldn't offer my opinions here without firsthand knowledge of krab failures crippling climbers that I know.

One of the best climbers that John Hendricksen ever had working for him rolled out of a krab and broke his back. This fellow learned his lesson the hard way too, and no longer uses krabs of any kind for his lifeline support.

I think some of you guys give short shrift to old school climbing and rigging techniques at your own peril by putting undue faith in fancy fragile gadgets that mister murphy will eventually teach you about one way or another.

jomoco
 
Re: treeclimber1

thats the way i am old school true blue right down to making my own lanyards.im trying this new stuff. but wont be selling my old school no way no how
 
Re: treeclimber1

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thats the way i am old school true blue right down to making my own lanyards.im trying this new stuff. but wont be selling my old school no way no how

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May you live long and prosper TC1!

jomoco
 
Re: treeclimber1

Reg, 1.29 in this vid? thats the finished LD right? it looks extraordinary man! fkn awesome, taking out all the slack with that lever is an inspired idea, whens it gonna be ready for us peasants?

I take it you can take wraps round both bollards for bigger stuff?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KSbRseau6o
 
I find for all the time it takes and whatever size it may be a cow hitch with 2 half hitches (Stillson) will always hold up. It won't bind or lose as much strength as a running bowline or a clove. Am I wrong?
 
KevinS, in my book you are right! I use the running bowline a lot, but I use the cow hitch more. Timber hitchs take time to tie and if it needs to be moved for what ever reason, it' a pain in the butt. i am a big fan of whoopie slings though!
 
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