Tapered Hinge: Diar(y)rhea of a thread gone wrong and left un-moderated
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Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
IN 6 pages, that was your first intelligent post.. Other than that you've been talking smack, which some may find entertaining, but actually does far more damage than you may realize... Notice the scarcity of intelligent experienced voices in the forums these days.. That wasn't always the case. Maybe you haven't been around long enough to know that. They all split cause somewhere along the line they had to deal with people like you, that would rather throw mud than have a considerate thoughtful conversation about tree work.
You and I have a difference of opinion.. and let's be clear, we can only speak from our own experience.. We only know what we know and there's plenty that we don't know, because there is zero well done science to support either perspective. SO a difference of opinion is all it is: and how do you handle it? Disparaging comments, and playground name calling... And what effect does that have? Obviously it fulfills some need for you, but what about others... It's very intimidating and many many people don't have thick enough skin to handle such mean and ugly personalities.
You are basically just the latest version of all the internet assholes that get some kind of kick out of rude and ugly personal attacks... Where is the love bro? Where is the respect for someone that has spent 35 years putting his life at risk to serve the community? Can't we have a difference of opinion without such negative personal attacks? Maybe if you could get past the name calling, we could actually shed some light on the reasons for our differences of opinion, and maybe, just maybe, then we could actually learn something....
Perhaps you don't think you have anything to learn... Perhaps you think you already know everything there is to know about tree work. Maybe you don't want to learn, or need to learn to do what you do.
I WANT TO LEARN ... and guaranteed there are a lot of other people watching these forums that want to learn. And I have learned, which I very much appreciate. It wold just be nice if it wasn't so ugly!
Here is the valuable insight... The bigger the tree, the less effective the tapered hinge is going to be. Makes sense right? So when you think about it, it's actually just common sense... But no one that I know of ever said it before. It's not in Dent's book.... It's not in Jerry's book.. It's not in my article. Its only here on this thread.... Somebody said it... might have even been you....
You also say in the above quote " the tapered hinge is for the most part an unnecessary practice for our needs"... Whereas Dent calls it "simple and effective on pg 98, and "an extremely important part of the faller's technique on page 99.. (we'll get back to that later). Who are you talking about when you say "our needs"... We may both come home with sawdust in our pockets, but your needs and my needs are far different...
Every time I go for a walk in the woods, most of the trees are growing pretty much straight up... That's a much different scenario than in a suburban backyard.. The trees I cut are often leaners, reaching for the light.. Where is that light? it's over the roof, the wires, the fence, the street, the swimming pool etc... All the things I don't want the tree (big or small) to hit!
I've made a living by putting trees on the ground with a chainsaw and pull line that other contractors were going to use a crane on. Side leaners, back leaners, nasty trees, and tight drop zones are big money for me. Learning how to fall these trees has given me a huge competitive advantage.. And the tapered hinge is a big part of it...
P.S. More from Dent coming... you're not going to like it though
This isn’t about Mr Dents work, or anyone else’s. This is about your work buddy. As long as you continue to post up shit like this, then tells us how knowledgable, cutting edage, and trend setting you are, you will get very little respect from me. The work of a hack as this asshole sees it (smashed structures and all), so I speak up. Fuck being nice Daniel. You and I are way past that point.
You have the nerve to talk about learning here. Really? I imagine very few have learned more on TB in the last few years than myself. This place has been a genuine game changer for me, and I have stated that fact many times. I fucking love this place. Once again don’t conflate My lack of interest in learning from you, with my desire to learn from those who know what the fuck they are doing, and my desire to progress as a tree-man. You can continue being a hack if you wish, but please don’t be dishonest while doing it.
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RopeShield
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
you all need to stand back and get in each others shoes
If you can't turn a tree with a tapered hinge, you are missing some key information
observations regarding the structure, rays, ring porous or diffuse, dead/live etc.
Elm red for example can be danced around on a stump spin in 360 etc, live poplar can be turned quite easily on flare wood.
there is so much most trainers do not know because they choose to ignore the complexities.
Men like @Daniel are keen to push the boundaries and their skill set/knowledge.
Wild horse is gotta run! And I for one think it is fun and of great interest.
The bashing or negative comments move no one forward.
ask a question, open a book, lots more to learn from doing things wrong than there is from doing things right or perfectly.
Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
@rico
Sorry bro... blow the dust off your copy and turn to pages 110- 111.. Illustrations of the swing dutchman...
HAHA ... there it is from your hero D Dent clearly illustrating the above cut that you refer to as fucked up... Swing Duttchman .. You've been trash talking the swing Dutchman for 6 pages so sure that you know it all... When the cut I made on the ash and locust is unquestionably and exactly the swing dutchman taught by Dent... That's what a dumbass you are!
Sorry bro... blow the dust off your copy and turn to pages 110- 111.. Illustrations of the swing dutchman...
HAHA ... there it is from your hero D Dent clearly illustrating the above cut that you refer to as fucked up... Swing Duttchman .. You've been trash talking the swing Dutchman for 6 pages so sure that you know it all... When the cut I made on the ash and locust is unquestionably and exactly the swing dutchman taught by Dent... That's what a dumbass you are!
RopeShield
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
I’m a fucking dumbass no doubt Daniel, but that doesn’t change the fact that you are a hack. You can continue to change your story, call it whatever you want, but it’s all subpar hackery to me. Was it a tapered hinge? Is it now all of the sudden a swinging dutchy? Maybe it was your world famous super duper whatever cut? Did the homeowner give you permission to crush the structure, or did you just say fuck it? Maybe continually looking to Mr. Dent for validation will make you feel better. Who fucking knows? Just as Mr. Dents stumps and pictures tell a story, or my stumps and pictures tell a story, so do yours.
Beside shining a flashing red warning light on your butchery and bullshit, the simple message that I was trying to convey here is that even a perfectly executed tapered hinge, or swinging dutch is something that most here don’t need to rely on to get their job done. Lets remember these are techniques created by timber fallers working in the woods, and not by arborists working over houses. Sure they can be used to assist, but we are climbers with the ability to set lines, which are a much safer, more powerful, effective tool for getting shit to go where we need it too. I am just trying to stop someone from recreating one of your gawd awful cuts, then wonder why they lost their log over sideways, crushing Mrs Jones garage.
As someone who has actually done both residential tree-work, and high production logging in the middle of no where, I understand that some tools and techniques can be used safely in both environments, and some shouldn’t. Even this dumbass is smart enough to know the difference.
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evo
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- My Island, WA
When are you going to get it through your thick skull Daniel. You are not gods gift to the world, and there are others who you can learn from. Drop the ego, take the cotton balls of arrogance out of your ears, and listen up. There are those of us here who have a different skillset which you can learn and adapt to perhaps better yourself.
My issue with your experimental cuts is you publish them as the latest greatest thing. Many of which have long long ago fallen out of favor due to the unpredictability. Take your $1000 swine set cut. Your face cut it aiming the top right at the swine, that little corner of fat decayed sapwood did ever so slightly pull the top to the left, but not enough. I can see your intention was to swing the dead top past the maples, pivot with the punky hinge to narrowly miss the swine. It didn't work.
In your Scots pine video, you obviously didn't trust the TH enough to get the tree where you wanted it. You set a guy line, and yanked it with a 5K winch. Did it help? Maybe? Maybe not?
Why in the hell are you putting a disclaimer on your video stating its for training professional arborists only? We certainly shouldn't get training from youtube, but from real world experience. Ever wonder why so many experienced folks critique this dribble? I for one am grateful for people who speak up, and call it for what it's worth. You just went on a long long rant about getting bullied, but that is exactly what you are doing. Just another perfect white dude, like John Wayne is always right no matter how many bodies pile up around him. Humble your shit, or be prepared to get called out on it but please don't be the sniveling bafoon trying to cry foul. Work on that used car salesman shit, you might need it for a retirement plan.
My issue with your experimental cuts is you publish them as the latest greatest thing. Many of which have long long ago fallen out of favor due to the unpredictability. Take your $1000 swine set cut. Your face cut it aiming the top right at the swine, that little corner of fat decayed sapwood did ever so slightly pull the top to the left, but not enough. I can see your intention was to swing the dead top past the maples, pivot with the punky hinge to narrowly miss the swine. It didn't work.
In your Scots pine video, you obviously didn't trust the TH enough to get the tree where you wanted it. You set a guy line, and yanked it with a 5K winch. Did it help? Maybe? Maybe not?
Why in the hell are you putting a disclaimer on your video stating its for training professional arborists only? We certainly shouldn't get training from youtube, but from real world experience. Ever wonder why so many experienced folks critique this dribble? I for one am grateful for people who speak up, and call it for what it's worth. You just went on a long long rant about getting bullied, but that is exactly what you are doing. Just another perfect white dude, like John Wayne is always right no matter how many bodies pile up around him. Humble your shit, or be prepared to get called out on it but please don't be the sniveling bafoon trying to cry foul. Work on that used car salesman shit, you might need it for a retirement plan.
RopeShield
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
Gerry is also the first to admit that he has lost his share. In his book Fundamentals of General Tree Work, pics of lost tree and what to do when things go wrong or before they do.
Common guys keep it positive.
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And here I thought trying to stop folks from making bad cuts, hurting themselves, or destroying property was a positive thing?
Yea, I also notice that his undercut was sighted to center punch the swing set, that he may, or may not of had permission to destroy. Low a behold that fucker went right where it was sighted. I'll give him that. Who woulda’ thunk it? I don’t know if he learned that in one of his beloved books, or if it is one those cuts he invented, that is simply above my level of understanding? Regardless, the work of a legend for sure.
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Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
@rico
Look at the fibers on the locust hinge.... Those long whiskers sticking up on the fat side of the hinge clearly showed that the hinge held all the way until the face closed.. You pride yourself on reading a stump, then say that was a gawd awful cut... Why do you think I took the picture.. BECAUSE THE CUT WORKED!!!
Look at the whiskers on the ash hinge... again the hinge clearly held until the face closed... what makes it gawd awful? can you read the stump? that hinge I remember specifically because it held a ton of head and side lean. really surprised me... as I said I was expecting to lose it, so cutting it high (about 6') enough to shorten the fall enough so that if it did hit the fence, it would only be small tips, so that the branch tips would break before the damaging the fence...
Again I took the picture because the cut worked.. If you know how to read a stump you cannot say otherwise.. If you continue to disparage those cuts as you have done throughout this thread, you are truly a dumb ass that has no business commenting on my work.
Both those cuts worked and yet you have repeatedly called them fucked up, gawd awful and referred to me as a hack for cutting and showing them...
Well if you want to call me a hack, you got to call Dent a hack too... Because both those cuts are right out of his book... Did you go read pro timber falling pages 110-111?????
Oh that's right.. Dent's your hero, but you know better than he does.. We should listen to you not Doug Dent... Because your experience has shown you that the tapered hinge, which he calls an "extremely important part of the faller's technique" (pg 99) you refer to as "having "a minimal effect on changing the coarse of a falling tree" and "that most here don’t need to rely on to get their job done". So who should we listen to you or Doug Dent? It's one or the other... there is no gray area here..
And regarding the ash and locust hinges, they are again straight out of Dent's book.. He calls them a swing dutchman. (pgs 110-111) I honestly hadn't touched the book for close to 15 years, so that's one good thing that has come out of all this ugliness.. And I didn't remember Dent's example, or the name of that cut that he calls the swing dutchman, which he refers to as "an effective method of handling the heavy head and heavy side leaner". I basically read it, forgot it, and then some time later discovered it through trial and error. And that is a perfect description of the ash hinge here... It was a heavy front and heavy side leaner. And surprise.... it worked so well...
So once again who should we listen to ... you who call it gawd awful, fucked up hackery, or Dent who calls it an effective method? Dent goes on to say that "many variations occur in the amount of holding wood and the position of the bar..the holding wood on the lean side (you call it downhill) should be severed PRIOR to the final back cut step....the secret of the Swing Dutchman is in determining how much of the remaining holding wood should be cut."
So everyone here can make up their own minds, should we listen to you or Doug Dent? Me.. I'll stick with Dent.. Kenny aka useless info (formerly the tree spyder) is on board with Dent too... But don't feel bad.. You're not alone...
Tony Tresselt @Tony thinks he knows better than Dent.
Dwayne Neustaeter thinks he knows better than Dent https://www.arborcanada.com/instructors/Neustaeter-Dwayne/
Ken Palmer thinks he knows better than Dent.
Tim Ard thinks he knows better than Dent...
The question is WHY???? Why do all these people, so called industry experts, think they know better than Dent... When you figure that out you'll have come a long way to understanding why this industry, this thread and you are so ignorant!
Look at the fibers on the locust hinge.... Those long whiskers sticking up on the fat side of the hinge clearly showed that the hinge held all the way until the face closed.. You pride yourself on reading a stump, then say that was a gawd awful cut... Why do you think I took the picture.. BECAUSE THE CUT WORKED!!!
Look at the whiskers on the ash hinge... again the hinge clearly held until the face closed... what makes it gawd awful? can you read the stump? that hinge I remember specifically because it held a ton of head and side lean. really surprised me... as I said I was expecting to lose it, so cutting it high (about 6') enough to shorten the fall enough so that if it did hit the fence, it would only be small tips, so that the branch tips would break before the damaging the fence...
Again I took the picture because the cut worked.. If you know how to read a stump you cannot say otherwise.. If you continue to disparage those cuts as you have done throughout this thread, you are truly a dumb ass that has no business commenting on my work.
Both those cuts worked and yet you have repeatedly called them fucked up, gawd awful and referred to me as a hack for cutting and showing them...
Well if you want to call me a hack, you got to call Dent a hack too... Because both those cuts are right out of his book... Did you go read pro timber falling pages 110-111?????
Oh that's right.. Dent's your hero, but you know better than he does.. We should listen to you not Doug Dent... Because your experience has shown you that the tapered hinge, which he calls an "extremely important part of the faller's technique" (pg 99) you refer to as "having "a minimal effect on changing the coarse of a falling tree" and "that most here don’t need to rely on to get their job done". So who should we listen to you or Doug Dent? It's one or the other... there is no gray area here..
And regarding the ash and locust hinges, they are again straight out of Dent's book.. He calls them a swing dutchman. (pgs 110-111) I honestly hadn't touched the book for close to 15 years, so that's one good thing that has come out of all this ugliness.. And I didn't remember Dent's example, or the name of that cut that he calls the swing dutchman, which he refers to as "an effective method of handling the heavy head and heavy side leaner". I basically read it, forgot it, and then some time later discovered it through trial and error. And that is a perfect description of the ash hinge here... It was a heavy front and heavy side leaner. And surprise.... it worked so well...
So once again who should we listen to ... you who call it gawd awful, fucked up hackery, or Dent who calls it an effective method? Dent goes on to say that "many variations occur in the amount of holding wood and the position of the bar..the holding wood on the lean side (you call it downhill) should be severed PRIOR to the final back cut step....the secret of the Swing Dutchman is in determining how much of the remaining holding wood should be cut."
So everyone here can make up their own minds, should we listen to you or Doug Dent? Me.. I'll stick with Dent.. Kenny aka useless info (formerly the tree spyder) is on board with Dent too... But don't feel bad.. You're not alone...
Tony Tresselt @Tony thinks he knows better than Dent.
Dwayne Neustaeter thinks he knows better than Dent https://www.arborcanada.com/instructors/Neustaeter-Dwayne/
Ken Palmer thinks he knows better than Dent.
Tim Ard thinks he knows better than Dent...
The question is WHY???? Why do all these people, so called industry experts, think they know better than Dent... When you figure that out you'll have come a long way to understanding why this industry, this thread and you are so ignorant!
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evo
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- My Island, WA
This is kinda cool, Rico is gettin all the attention. So many unanswered questions I typed out. Alas...
Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
RopeShield
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
I AM positive... positive my cuts work ....
I'm positive that 99.44% of the time that your videos are time wasted.
I can't keep all your posted pics of butchery straight, so bear with me because I'm gonna guess which ones you are talking about here.
You can change the name from a tapered hinge, to a swinging dutchy, or whatever else you think offers you a little cover, but what I see is a horrendous, unfinished undercut, which may or may not have a little bypass. You then followed up with what looks to be a multi-leveled attempt at a backcut ( look closely and you will see what looks like another shelf that the glove finger is hiding behind). If that wasn't enough you proceed to destroying your hinge with what looks to be a dull butter knife. Were just gonna have to trust you when you tell us it all worked out for the best. Some world-class cutting for sure. Would Doug approve? Who fucking knows, or cares!
Next up is this lovely offering. You tell a tale of starting on the right side, "gutting your Hinge", then finishing it off from the left till it "popped.' What is very obvious is that despite all that "out of the box", super awesome saw work, that fucker went right where it was leaning and sighted (right on the fucking swingset). Kinda proves my point buddy, and I am still utterly mystified why anyone in their right mind would post up a picture showing destroyed property. You should be ashamed of yourself for charging those folks $1000 for such lazy hackery.
Next in the queue is a little something you refer to as the "irregular hinge" with yet a little more "gutted hinge"? We won't talk about the ugly, lazy, unfinished undercut, which once again my or may not be considered bypass.
"Haha.. call me lazy, but it worked." Your words, not mine,. This kind of says all we need to know about your low-level of commitment to always striving to do your best. That my friends is the very definition of Hackery.
You can try your best to make this an argument between me and Mr. Douglas Dent, but it is a coward who stands behind another man during His fights. As such it would appear that you are not only a hack, but a fucking coward to boot!
Now I could do this shit all night, but I think you get the idea. My lovely bride is getting pissed
and demands some attention, so duty calls.
You can change the name from a tapered hinge, to a swinging dutchy, or whatever else you think offers you a little cover, but what I see is a horrendous, unfinished undercut, which may or may not have a little bypass. You then followed up with what looks to be a multi-leveled attempt at a backcut ( look closely and you will see what looks like another shelf that the glove finger is hiding behind). If that wasn't enough you proceed to destroying your hinge with what looks to be a dull butter knife. Were just gonna have to trust you when you tell us it all worked out for the best. Some world-class cutting for sure. Would Doug approve? Who fucking knows, or cares!
Next up is this lovely offering. You tell a tale of starting on the right side, "gutting your Hinge", then finishing it off from the left till it "popped.' What is very obvious is that despite all that "out of the box", super awesome saw work, that fucker went right where it was leaning and sighted (right on the fucking swingset). Kinda proves my point buddy, and I am still utterly mystified why anyone in their right mind would post up a picture showing destroyed property. You should be ashamed of yourself for charging those folks $1000 for such lazy hackery.
Next in the queue is a little something you refer to as the "irregular hinge" with yet a little more "gutted hinge"? We won't talk about the ugly, lazy, unfinished undercut, which once again my or may not be considered bypass.
"Haha.. call me lazy, but it worked." Your words, not mine,. This kind of says all we need to know about your low-level of commitment to always striving to do your best. That my friends is the very definition of Hackery.
You can try your best to make this an argument between me and Mr. Douglas Dent, but it is a coward who stands behind another man during His fights. As such it would appear that you are not only a hack, but a fucking coward to boot!
Now I could do this shit all night, but I think you get the idea. My lovely bride is getting pissed
and demands some attention, so duty calls.
Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
@rico
None of what you are seeing are bypasses in the faces.. they are all plate cuts, where the fibers at the apex of the hinge are 1/2" tall or more, rather than meeting in a tight kerf-width apex... I've shown you pictures and explained it, put videos up on youtube, but once again its out of your box and you stand fast in your ignorance. there is no more bypass in any of those cuts above than there is in this one pictured below.. (which is the notch and plunged back cut of that dry tulip top that cleared the maples, breaking only one branch. And when I tell you the client was 100% ok with hitting the swingset, why don't you believe me? seems like you're reaching for anything you can to throw a little mud, because that's all you got. when the truth, common sense and logic don't help your argument, all that's left is throwing mud... And you are so good at that... You want to be right, but you're all wrong: so you throw mud... Way to go Buddy!
And BTW, I realized after taking another look at the pics from that tulip top, that I did not gut that hinge. I did however gut the hinge on the falling cut of same tree, which is where the confusion came from. Jump all over that one bro, cause you got nothing else...
And to be clear, on that tulip top, I had no interest in tapering the hinge or leaving more holding wood on the left side... That even part of the hinge shows the length of the bar, which was significantly shorter than the hinge. I knew that top would move before the hinge was even on the left side, but didn't think it would effect the lay, though I considered that possibility. There was a lot of weight to the lay, and dead tulip isn't going to have much holding ability. On that cut, I was merely trying to get the tree to the lay making the cut as quickly, easily and accurately possible.
When I'm not experimenting to see what can and can't be done, I'm usually doing what needs to be done to get the tree to the lay reliably, no more... You can all it lazy, I call it practical, simple and effective. Once you completely understand the physics and principles involved in tree falling, and have a solid understanding of all the effects of species, size, decay etc, its only logical to break the "rules", when doing so is expedient and safe.
To be honest with you Rico, I included that picture of the irregular hinge in with those examples of the tapered hinge, just because I knew it would get a rise out of you. I'm actually surprised it took you so long to bring that one into the conversation... HAHA ....
None of what you are seeing are bypasses in the faces.. they are all plate cuts, where the fibers at the apex of the hinge are 1/2" tall or more, rather than meeting in a tight kerf-width apex... I've shown you pictures and explained it, put videos up on youtube, but once again its out of your box and you stand fast in your ignorance. there is no more bypass in any of those cuts above than there is in this one pictured below.. (which is the notch and plunged back cut of that dry tulip top that cleared the maples, breaking only one branch. And when I tell you the client was 100% ok with hitting the swingset, why don't you believe me? seems like you're reaching for anything you can to throw a little mud, because that's all you got. when the truth, common sense and logic don't help your argument, all that's left is throwing mud... And you are so good at that... You want to be right, but you're all wrong: so you throw mud... Way to go Buddy!
And BTW, I realized after taking another look at the pics from that tulip top, that I did not gut that hinge. I did however gut the hinge on the falling cut of same tree, which is where the confusion came from. Jump all over that one bro, cause you got nothing else...
And to be clear, on that tulip top, I had no interest in tapering the hinge or leaving more holding wood on the left side... That even part of the hinge shows the length of the bar, which was significantly shorter than the hinge. I knew that top would move before the hinge was even on the left side, but didn't think it would effect the lay, though I considered that possibility. There was a lot of weight to the lay, and dead tulip isn't going to have much holding ability. On that cut, I was merely trying to get the tree to the lay making the cut as quickly, easily and accurately possible.
When I'm not experimenting to see what can and can't be done, I'm usually doing what needs to be done to get the tree to the lay reliably, no more... You can all it lazy, I call it practical, simple and effective. Once you completely understand the physics and principles involved in tree falling, and have a solid understanding of all the effects of species, size, decay etc, its only logical to break the "rules", when doing so is expedient and safe.
To be honest with you Rico, I included that picture of the irregular hinge in with those examples of the tapered hinge, just because I knew it would get a rise out of you. I'm actually surprised it took you so long to bring that one into the conversation... HAHA ....
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Yet more ever-changing stories, renaming of subpar practices, self-promoting bloviation, and an admission that, just as I suspected, you are a fucking troll, looking for attention!
Gawd knows you have left plenty of feast for fodder out there, and I could continue dissecting your cuts till the cows come home, pointing out all your hackery, but frankly it gave me nightmares last night.
Your pictures say much more than I ever could, and do it far more articulately, so I will pass you the gavel Daniel. I'm done here buddy.
PS- Do us all a favor and please stop posting pictures of your gawd awful cutting, before you get someone hurt. Pretty please?
Gawd knows you have left plenty of feast for fodder out there, and I could continue dissecting your cuts till the cows come home, pointing out all your hackery, but frankly it gave me nightmares last night.
Your pictures say much more than I ever could, and do it far more articulately, so I will pass you the gavel Daniel. I'm done here buddy.
PS- Do us all a favor and please stop posting pictures of your gawd awful cutting, before you get someone hurt. Pretty please?
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