swinging some white oak limbs

Your timerline is a bit off there.. It's be nice if people had the integrity to check their facts before throwing out such slanderous commnets...

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Bullshit Daniel, you were an an un-confident greenhorn 3 years ago on AS. Don't try adding years onto your career like you're some old hand, you're LYING. You're barely competent, period.

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Natural crotch rigging was what I learned from Marv back in the sixties and early seventies. What else has changed since then? Getting stuck using out-dated techniques is indefensible. Just because the bark isn't worn through or there is no observable damage or decline doesn't mean that there isn't damage. How hot do you think that the bark and underlying tissue becomes? Is that hot enough to cause cellular damage? Has any researcher ever even thought about measuring the temps? It would be super simple and cheap using temp guns...people use them for grilling, they're cheap, $50...

http://tinyurl.com/2c2m82d

Setting a rigging FC from the ground isn't any harder than setting a climbing FC. Just make one strong enough.
 
Tom,
Where's your science.. Don't make scientifically unsupported statements as though they are facts.. Anecdotally, I have not seen damage from natural crotch rigging..
Has anyone here ever seen it?
I'd like at least to see some pics..


[ QUOTE ]
Natural crotch rigging was what I learned from Marv back in the sixties and early seventies. What else has changed since then? Getting stuck using out-dated techniques is indefensible. Just because the bark isn't worn through or there is no observable damage or decline doesn't mean that there isn't damage. How hot do you think that the bark and underlying tissue becomes? Is that hot enough to cause cellular damage? Has any researcher ever even thought about measuring the temps? It would be super simple and cheap using temp guns...people use them for grilling, they're cheap, $50...

http://tinyurl.com/2c2m82d

Setting a rigging FC from the ground isn't any harder than setting a climbing FC. Just make one strong enough.

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Tom, just to be sure its clear, the lowering ropes were not NC'ed, the "stationary" rigging system ropes were.


I was just trying to offer the constructive criticism asked for. Of course it wasn't really wanted. Just seemingly asking for praise.


When natural crotching ropes, we know that they stretch somewhat when loaded, even when "stationary", with increased movement with increased rope length and stretch characteristics of different ropes (aside from super static dyneema-type/ UHMWPE).

I run my business with low-impact as a rule for any keeper trees and landscaping, unless the homeowner specifically indicate that they don't care about specific shrubs or annuals (in which case, I still try not to smash stuff. Personal ethics and choices).

My estimation is that large limbs like that have significant mass and associated forces. My constructive criticism is to reduce abrasion from ropes and impact from banging massive limbs (in the physics sense of mass) being rigged.

Maybe I worry too much. Could just be a knee-jerk reaction to poor practices that I see around me, and read about time to time here (what different posters have witnessed and posted in different threads).

I think that it can be easy to mitigate some of our impacts on keeper trees, and that it can be very easy to do so. In this case, a static removable false crotch or friction reducing sleeve of some sort are easy options.




I will say that I'm impressed that a person started natural crotch rigging when they weren't even in double digits for age, if I do the math right, since I'm 37. Maybe I just think people would be better not to exaggerate simple matters of easily verifiable fact when trying to support their position.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Tom,
Where's your science.. Don't make scientifically unsupported statements as though they are facts.. Anecdotally, I have not seen damage from natural crotch rigging..
Has anyone here ever seen it?
I'd like at least to see some pics..


Since this is a reasonable, not ego-based or insulting post post, I'll respond. Daniel you offer talking points which are a good contributions that lead to people learning different things. Its the other crap that is crap.

I see it all the time when I'm natural crotching. I only NC rigging lines on removal trees. I don't have any pictures, though. I've seen it strip off bark entirely, burning down through the cambium.

I subscribe the Do No Harm approach, and do what I can to protect keeper trees by not NCing in them without protection.

http://www.wesspur.com/Friction-Savers/friction-saver.html
For those not familiar, these leather cambium savers are cheap and easy install/ retrieve, remotely. They now are now available in 3/4" rope compatible ones . This helps with spliced eyes on ropes. This can allow a larger rope bend radius without having to install a block for some rigging scenarios. Ring and Ring friction savers have a poor bend radius for rigging. Static remove-settable/ removable false crotch techniques are good for some low impact rigging situations as well, but can be more difficult in some tight crotches.

These add the efficiency of NC rigging and rope friendly bend radius, yet the protection of a FC system, so I like having them. It would be good if their was a place to tie a little cord for clipping with a 'biner, as I unforetunately have found that they are sometimes easily lost, and hard to carry into the tree securely when not installed on the line.
 
I have seen rope damage in Chinese Elm that didnt compartmentalize and decayed down into the stem. There goes that tie in point! I took it out. This was left behind from a climber years before me.
Sorry I didnt take any pictures Daniel.
I also take care of some huge mulberys that have some nasty wounds from MY rope years ago. Shame on me.
Mabey if those areas decline, I can document it and show you. Give me a decade or so.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Tom,
Where's your science.. Don't make scientifically unsupported statements as though they are facts.. Anecdotally, I have not seen damage from natural crotch rigging..
Has anyone here ever seen it?
I'd like at least to see some pics.


[/ QUOTE ]

What science are you concerned with?

What unsupported statements am I making?

I've seen TIPs with damage..from CLIMBING ropes!!! If climbing ropes are damaging trees I'd bet that rigging ropes are...and I'm not a gambling man, I work too hard for my money.

Until I got the camera I have now I never climbed with a camera...so...pics...nope. I don't feel any compulsion to prove what I've seen or what I say. If my word isn't enough...such is life...
 
Tom, you are missing the point.

Daniel has never SEEN damage caused by natural crotch rigging.

Therefore, it does not exist.

You are wasting keystrokes if you think reasoning with him is going to further the conversation.

Daniel is great in that he passionately argues his perception of reality as a child would, quick to unleash insults if he feels threatened, and also like a child in that he is a horrible speller.

Again Daniel, I implore you, when is the gutter cleaning video coming out? The leaves are falling, the iron is hot.

SZ
 
OK Sean,
For soem reason I thought you were in the 25-28 year old range.. SO I mistatated that.. I apologize...

Is it too much to ask for some science here..

Making a statement like natural crotch rigging is an indefinsible outdated technique is pretty bold.

Someone show me some science that natural crotch rigging can damage a thick bark tree such as white oak. Or some standard or guidleine... Anything... until then, I'll keep my own councel. (sp HAHA)..

Also you could end up getting someone killed with that statememt... I always natural crotch rig, when I AM concerned with reducing force on a tree that has structural issues..
 
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It would seem the mid point tie off is Daniel's hobby horse, he's determined to have it adopted as the tie-off of choice for all discerning arborists, is this correct Dan?

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No, it has its uses.. which come in real handy in many situations. I've also seen it go wrong when it was applied improperly by another climber...
 
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Bullshit Daniel, you were an an un-confident greenhorn 3 years ago on AS. Don't try adding years onto your career like you're some old hand, you're LYING. You're barely competent, period.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could respond to this defensively, by saying something like. I won the rescue in Pittsburg 4 years ago in 2006, Pat and Roachy came in 2&3 (good day for the east). That was the same year TCI Mag published my artile on footlocking, which Tom D. edited and, called at the time, "the most complete publication on the subject, in either writing or video". Also the ANSI pruning standards were changed according to some recommendations I made, whenever that was, a few years ago. And the ITCC rules were changed as a direct result of my use of a flip stick to set a line in the throw bag in 2006 (20 points but didn't place). And I could go on...

But if I say that stuff, I sound egotistical maniac in need of stroking etc..

If I say nothing, then your statement leaves an lasting impression in many people.

So either way the mud slinger wins.. Good job Chip. You are an excellent mudslinger... That's a great contribution to the community here and the industry in general.. As were your cat rescue pics... You're the man!
 
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I always natural crotch rig, when I AM concerned with reducing force on a tree that has structural issues..

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Daniel, can you explain that please
 
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I may be having a hangover moment here but, how does natural crotch rigging reduce force?

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To give the benefit of the doubt, maybe he is referring to natural re-directs while rigging.
thinking.gif


But, Daniel did say it doesn't effect thick barked trees. And how thick is "thick" enough for the rope not to burn into the cambium? Well, there are too many variables to list to come up with a definitive answer...

Which is one of the many reasons why most would choose to use a block...
 
Just like "cycles to failure". We have all heard of it, acknowledge it, think about it, but wwho keeps track of it!

Add his skid steer to the equation, he must buy lots of rope!
 
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