Question about felling technique

[Chaplain242]

The technique has a use for certain situations, especially when resources are scarce. But trouble with combining the cuts into a 'stangle is the propensity to BBC, and also unpredictable behaviours when finishing the back cut to spear cut the top down. Even if just risk of chainsaw damage.

When I use it (in certain situations when short of daylight, or short of sufficiently trained help on the ground, or just being a safer option) I do it as was recommended to me by an older arborist to separate the cuts. Do a very narrow standard scarf and carefully cut the back cut (with sufficient height to stop kick back of the top) until the scarf closes, then wedge the back cut.

Then go higher on the spar and do the spear cut as a separate operation. Preferably use a rigging line thrown over a higher branch union for a groundy to restrain the top leaning back in case of wind etc (not to pull hard as that often defeats the intended spear cut).

Can be very helpful especially when in close proximity to other trees that laying over would just get caught up; or in the case of leaning the top to enable the spear cut as the other side has no drop zone or has targets. Also use it when I really dont trust climbing on a certain tree.

Also ground personnel are kept far away from the action of falling tops catching other trees on he way down, or groundys having to pull down caught up branches or tops, as the weight combined with the spear cut usually gets down in one go.

Certainly only for certain situations and is a 'handle with care' technique as things can go wrong. But also can be the lesser of many evils in some situations...

Should also add that if doing any spars of size, that I use a series of staggered plunge cuts to form the lower spear cut leaving a thin top release cut so that chance of BBC is almost none...

 

[Daniel]

We all remember the "intentional barberchair", and the after photo of a tree attached to a high stump by a barber chair of broken, splintered wood. Doing stupid shit that creates a dangerous situation downstream? It definitely checks those boxes.

You mentioned that you developed the "strangle" cut for those tops that you couldn't reach with your bucket, and were to tall to fit in your lay. Why not climb the fucking thing, have someone else climb it, and/or rig it right. Nope that sounds like hard work, and to sensible. Instead your doing this "strangle" slice cut from a bucket without rigging, simply because you couldn't reach any higher with your bucket, and were too fucking lazy to climb it? What could possible go wrong here? Eventually one of these slice cut tops is gonna comeback and clobber you, with nowhere to run or hide. That is the very definition of doing very stupid, lazy shit that will eventually kill someone.

When using the slice cut at height on upright leader/ tops we are usually tip tying to another rigging point so that they can be lowered straight down in a slow controlled manner, so as not to beat the living shit out of the climber. Using safe. proven, time tested, effective methods means just that. Is that not good enough for you?

Were you mentored by pro climbers and fallers when you were coming up, or are you mostly self trained? Just curious.

*For the record I've yet do hear any logical explanation for the trainwreak on post #32?

That wasn't my first intentional BBC either.... one of the things I learned from trying the intentional BBC is how to avoid BBC when cutting in a high crotch, heavy front leaner from R&S or the bucket... It's 100% effective and so simple, yet no one that I know of has ever thought of it before... So outside the box experimentation leads to a better understanding of safer techniques.. The BBC from that video was no danger at all because we controlled the piece with the skid loader. And I don;t get paid for the wood, so I don't care about preserving the log.

If you refuse to budge on your viewpoint, you are going to end up with the same results you always had... The only way to change, move forward and get different (better) results is to change your viewpoint.. Lighten up bro, there are other ways of getting things done in the world that you haven;t seen yet, and some of them are faster, better, and safer alternatives.

There are cuts out there that would blow your mind.. how quick, simple, easy and SAFE they are... But you are too stuck in the box to find them..... This industry is slow to change .... SO many people and even the teachers and trainers out there are using cookie cutter approach to falling trees, without understanding the "WHY"... They stay in their comfort zone doing things the way they were taught... following the "rules".... And that is where they will stay until they understand the why... completely understand.. Once complete understanding has been achieved then, with a little imagination, you can learn to transcend the rules...

For example:

I almost never make undercuts or face cuts when rigging a tree down these days... 95% of my cuts are top cut only.. fast, efficient, often more effective and safer, except for the 5% that no undercut will kill you... I understand the when and why of that 5% and put an undercut or face in when needed.. The rest of the tee climbing world that doesn't understand has to put an undercut in anything big enough to do damage, or risk fatality... So they all use undercuts in anything big... The lesser experienced might look at "rip cut rigging" and think its dangerous because they've never seen it before... But I've been doing it for years... It's a quantum leap in rigging technique, which from the look of Youtube video these days a few others have figured out for themselves... (YA YA I know all you west coast climbers have been using rip cuts on straight stem conifers limbs since the stone ages)

I don't get out of the bucket for several reasons.. #1 is I DON'T HAVE TO... my cuts are 100%.. I've experimented with the stangle and know its limitations.... As seen in the pine top video, I can set it up for a remote trip if needed... You think it's safer to climb out of the bucket or send a climber up there??? It took me about a minute to set that cut up... I was no where near the cut when it tripped: completely out of danger. Top 25' on the ground in a minute... How long would it take to send a climber up there to piece that top out in tight quarters?

I was mentored by some of the best production climbers to ever walk the face of the earth bro... But they always let me make the falling cuts... I learned to plunge cut from a one day course with Mark Chisholm around 2002, then bought the GOL videos and asked a bunch of stupid questions of these forums to develop my falling skills... I have been fortunate to be blessed with an active imagination, curiosity, and the type of trees and terrain that afford a lot of situations for experimentation, a well as a financial incentive where innovation has really paid off. Not too many guys have those chances... I feel very blessed to have walked this path.


PS I will answer your question about that pic from post 32

 

[rico]

As I said before, you really should learn how to make a proper slice cut. I just watched your “plunged vertical snap cut” and “Murphy tree service” vids and it is very clear that you actually don’t know how to properly use a slice cut to clear a hung up tree. Your whole process is completely bass ackwards as you are making the cut in the reverse order. Plus there is the never ending, completely unnecessary plunge cuts, hung up cuts causing multiple attempts, barberchairs, squished bar rails, etc. It obvious you have no concept of cutting the wood that’s compressed/loaded up first, or back cleaning/cutting your kerf to make room for your bar and chain as the cut is closing up. A fella who knows what he’s doing can buck a log with serious top tension and never pull his saw out of the cut. Top to bottom. It’s a flowing, fluid thing of beauty. No pinched saws, zero fiber pull, no barberchairs, ultra safe, etc. You are very lucky that you are working with small trees and oversized shrubs, or you would have hurt yourself a long time ago.
To say that I am “blown away” is an understatement. Just keeping it real buddy.

 

[evo]

Like Rico said and I mentioned earlier, keep that saw in the cut doin what it's suppose to be doin. I'm out, but do know I will call bullshit when I see it to hopefully scare the shit out of anyone who thinks trying out any of you're "Pro" or "advanced" techniques..

 

[Daniel]

As I said before, you really should learn how to make a proper slice cut. I just watched your “plunged vertical snap cut” and “Murphy tree service” vids and it is very clear that you actually don’t know how to properly use a slice cut to clear a hung up tree. Your whole process is completely bass ackwards as you are making the cut in the reverse order. Plus there is the never ending, completely unnecessary plunge cuts, hung up cuts causing multiple attempts, barberchairs, squished bar rails, etc. It obvious you have no concept of cutting the wood that’s compressed/loaded up first, or back cleaning/cutting your kerf to make room for your bar and chain as the cut is closing up. A fella who knows what he’s doing can buck a log with serious top tension and never pull his saw out of the cut. Top to bottom. It’s a flowing, fluid thing of beauty. No pinched saws, zero fiber pull, no barberchairs, ultra safe, etc. You are very lucky that you are working with small trees and oversized shrubs, or you would have hurt yourself a long time ago.
To say that I am “blown away” is an understatement. Just keeping it real buddy.

Get your language right bro..
There is no BBC on the plunged vertical snap cut... I leave a strap up top on purpose. It actually can slow the movement down as shown... You call that split a BBC, but its not.. It's just a split trunk.. not every split trunk is a BBC.. BBC chair refers to the lifting motion of the back side a trunk during the fall.. And you guys keep talking about the danger of BBC when using a slide cut stangle.. I kept thinking what are they talking about??? There is 0% chance of a BBC .. It's because you're misusing the terms. That makes it very hard to converse here.


now if you are worried about the split trunk, go ahead and worry,.. Not me though . I split the trunk on purpose. obviously as a logger,that's something you try to avoid... any tree guy that bothers listening to you won't have the option to use the effect to his benefit as needed. If you look carefully at that big ash log I used the plunged vertical snap cut on, where the cut was made, I stepped back and just let gravity take a minute to release the cut, you will see a large hanger falling out of the sky after the log drops... I didn't want to be near that falling limb, when the cut tripped so I figured out a way to set the cut up and walk away, making it that much safer.

Start watching at 3:10 and wait look for the falling hanger after the log drops.

that said I do the plunge a little differently these days..

and please feel free to make a video showing your preferred technique. Mine works perfectly. Lots of other guys have used it with nothing but success reported. Even fairly inexperienced guys.

 

[samsquatch]

Dear lord! this took off. As OP, I just want to say that my original question was.. answered(rashly).. and that cutting a Humboldt with the top of the bar is not going to join any of the professional fallers' short list of "older than dirt" cutting methods. big whoop. Thanks for the discussions!

 

[samsquatch]

You come on here and ask a question that shows you are fairly green. As usual you get a few helpful answers, and a few not so helpful ones. Now your undies are in a bunch? WTF.

Go learn the proper mechanics from a Real Timber Faller. Get Douglas Dent's books on the subject (you will thank me later). This is an arborist website, and probably not the best place to learn proper cutting skills. No offense, but some of the stumpies around here would/do make a pro faller cringe.

Green? Sure I'm greener than some, but for the sake of all green peeps, why don't you not-so-green "pros" invite questions about the work we do? Would you instead prefer it if the new peeps steered away from here, because they don't want to waste their time asking any questions the answers to which are just being flamed by a "pro"?
Standard forum dynamics at play here: long time pros get comfy in their places and form a community in which any user that's greener than them is just another opportunity for them to lay down some BS about "that ain't the way I do it".
Let green peeps be green peeps, definitely call them out when they're doing something stupid or dangerous. But leave the ego (and insults) off the keyboard.

 

[JD3000]

I would say a thread anout basics with pics and videos be started then.

 

[Daniel]

Sometimes you have to go with the flow and let a thread wander around a bit for the greater good, especially when new ideas are getting tossed around.... On the other hand abrasive conversation is mostly needless and very counter-productive as it chases away a lot of other very competent people who just have no tolerance for such things... There are a lot of good guys out there that get one taste of that and never come back.... And its a shame..

But some people juts have that "evil" in them. I wonder how much of it is about the beers.. Guys waking up in the morning and having to check to see what they wrote online last night... (You know who yo are). I don't drink but have written my share of ugly comments over the years. I try not to be too reactive these days...

Rico, you're not the first guy out there trash talking my techniques. Fortunately I have thick skin and enough confidence to keep putting them out... While the mud thrower always seems to win in politics and online forums, I've had enough feedback from the people I've worked with as well as other pros who have adopted my techniques with great success to know with certainty that they are effective and valuable.

A buddy of mine who mostly lurks here and has seen plenty of my work in person for the last 20 years called me up once during a particularly nasty debate to share the perspective that all the controversy gets people thinking and that's a good thing.

 

[Scheffa]

What I have seen here is what I find is a major problem in our industry.
Being from Australia things may be different here but it seems it’s always one tree guy vs the other, rather than getting along and sharing knowledge it becomes a competitive environment.

Discussion and debate have a place in improving and creating techniques but often the techniques get overlooked due to shit talking.

A thread or section on this forum for people to display and discuss different cutting techniques would be awesome, a place where we can all possibly learn something of one another

 

[rico]

Green? Sure I'm greener than some, but for the sake of all green peeps, why don't you not-so-green "pros" invite questions about the work we do? Would you instead prefer it if the new peeps steered away from here, because they don't want to waste their time asking any questions the answers to which are just being flamed by a "pro"?
Standard forum dynamics at play here: long time pros get comfy in their places and form a community in which any user that's greener than them is just another opportunity for them to lay down some BS about "that ain't the way I do it".
Let green peeps be green peeps, definitely call them out when they're doing something stupid or dangerous. But leave the ego (and insults) off the keyboard.

If I remember correctly you came here asking how to hold a saw during a Humboldt. Color me crazy, but I think "green" is an very apt description. You got a few very simple, straight forward answers to your question, such as learning how to simply make a Humboldt properly, or as cerviararborist suggested try another method, etc. All very solid recommendations. I guess that was not good enough for you, so you began to question the answers. For some reason your knickers got in a knot, got a little snarky, and let us all know that you had to edit your post to remove some ill-mannered comment. Now You want to talk about Ego? Really? Maybe it is you who needed to check his shit at the door?

I do apologize for the pissing match between Daniel (love ya buddy) and myself, but I strongly disagree with some of his cutting methods. Being the asshole that I am, I can never resist mixing it up a little. Maybe, just maybe, you weeded through the good and the bad, the never ending vids, pics, and descriptions, and learned something from the cluster-fuck that ensued? That after all is why you are here. No?

 

[rico]

What I have seen here is what I find is a major problem in our industry.
Being from Australia things may be different here but it seems it’s always one tree guy vs the other, rather than getting along and sharing knowledge it becomes a competitive environment.

Discussion and debate have a place in improving and creating techniques but often the techniques get overlooked due to shit talking.

A thread or section on this forum for people to display and discuss different cutting techniques would be awesome, a place where we can all possibly learn something of one another

I have been a strong advocate for a section here dedicated to the "Cutting Arts". So far nothing.
I think it would be a treasure trove of useful info for both newbies and vets alike.
I myself don't do a lot of crane work, so I would love to hone my skills, and have the opportunity to learn the fine art of "crane cutting' from folks like PCTree, Deevo, and others.

 

[Daniel]

Love is as love does my brother!

Just take a little of the edge off and try to stick to comments that have a least a small measure of remediation.. (ie. here's the problem with such and such a technique and here's a better way to do it)

Thanks and I do value both your experience and the value of having a noble devil's advocate.. (bet its been a while since anyone called you noble we can always hope)

 

[rico]

Really Daniel? I encourage you to go back and read this entire thread. I entered this conversation by giving a level headed recommendation. You entered this discussion by posting a pic of your open face cut, with the comment that “ you process skills that would make pro west coast faller cringe”. You continue on with more lovely pics and comment like “ above our heads”, and the fact that you process many cuts that would “blow our minds”, and a never ending sales pitch of all the treemen you have enlightened with your revolutionary techniques. I continued calling bullshit on your nonsense. Now your talking about taking the edge off, remediation, and nobility. You my friend are full of caca.

 

[Daniel]

alright... I still have hope for you though!

 

[evo]

Really Daniel? I encourage you to go back and read this entire thread. I entered this conversation by giving a level headed recommendation. You entered this discussion by posting a pic of your open face cut, with the comment that “ you process skills that would make pro west coast faller cringe”. You continue on with more lovely pics and comment like “ above our heads”, and the fact that you process many cuts that would “blow our minds”, and a never ending sales pitch of all the treemen you have enlightened with your revolutionary techniques. I continued calling bullshit on your nonsense. Now your talking about taking the edge off, remediation, and nobility. You my friend are full of caca.

This happens like the tide. Danny boy gets up on his pony and goes for a ride, points fingers and deflects like a good white man at everyone but himself. Its like kicking a dead mule.

 

[Daniel]

Asshole alert!!!
I’m sure there are plenty of “cringing” west coast fallers, after seeing that picture of your open face undercut?

Here's a perfect example.. Just throwing mud.. no comment on what's wrong with it or what could have been done better.. you have no idea what the cut was used for (to bridge a sidewalk), because you just puke crap out of your mouth rather than open your mind to new possibilities or ask a question for clarification. ..

That's a good cut.. relates to the OP in that it shows a way to make a steep downward angled cut without having to cut upwards... Its a cheat that helps someone with moderate skills to make the bottom cut easily and reliably.. My notches are 99.9% perfect... But if you saw me trying to cut a Humboldt on a big tree with a short bar you would consider me a novice... That's what I mean by "make a west coast faller cringe".. I use technique to compensate and get the job done with ease.

 

[chiselbit]

Dear lord! this took off. As OP, I just want to say that my original question was.. answered(rashly).. and that cutting a Humboldt with the top of the bar is not going to join any of the professional fallers' short list of "older than dirt" cutting methods. big whoop. Thanks for the discussions!

Hey Sam, yeah this thing took off in some weird directions but to answer your original question, I backbar humboldts all the time in smaller wood. It’s my preferred method until the wood gets to be about 24”+ then I take a small step further towards the front of the spar and use the bottom of the bar. Right handed or left depending on which side of the spar I’m on. If I’m on the right side of the spar I run the saw left handed.

 

[rico]

Gosh Daniel, if you were actually trying to bridge a sidewalk why would you use a high stump, and a wide open face. You want the spar to come down as soft and flat as possible. All you are doing is encouraging this spar to come down hard, and tip first. Once again, completely bass ackwards. Were done here buddy!

 

[colb]

Goll dang it why are there so many know it alls around here?
ms661 powerhead: 16.3lbs; 114DL .063 E Super bar: 5.05lbs; 114DL .063 chain = 2.075lbs
= 23.something lbs dude.
Why is everyone on here so hellbent to go after one another. Don't ya all listen to Bob Marley's music every once in a while?

Is it 23 lbs. gassed or dry, buffalo soldier?