This kind of work will evenually come up snake eyes. When it does it will cost more than all the the money made over the years by shaving time by taking chances. Nobody will remember the thousands of cuts that ended fine, but sure as hell will remember the big fuk up. Bucket jockey crap, high as the bucket goes then just cut it.
How much is too much?
- Thread starter Corporate72
- Start date
Chaplain242
Branched out member
Need feeler gauges to do that...
Chaplain242
Branched out member
Thrilling to do though...
Motocross and rock climbing are thrilling. This dude is standing in a bucket gambling with other peoples stuff. The owners house and his employers liability. Seeing way too much crap work done for the camera these days. Video things worth sharing. Some dude in a bucket making questionable cuts is lame. Another example of taking unnecesary chances. His employer should be horrified.
Chaplain242
Branched out member
B
I see employers asking their staff to do this stuff semi regularly.
To companies with a reputation (particularly municipal contracts) it is always declared unnecessary.
To companies trying to get a bonus on every job (sometimes to carry the bottom line) it is seen often.
if you are good at it (and are prepared to pay damages if it does go pear shaped) I say good luck to them. If they don’t plan to repair/pay damages then they should be kicked out of the industry...
I see employers asking their staff to do this stuff semi regularly.
To companies with a reputation (particularly municipal contracts) it is always declared unnecessary.
To companies trying to get a bonus on every job (sometimes to carry the bottom line) it is seen often.
if you are good at it (and are prepared to pay damages if it does go pear shaped) I say good luck to them. If they don’t plan to repair/pay damages then they should be kicked out of the industry...
Tony
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Lancaster, PA
owScott nailed it
Seems like the cutter has neither the skill, experience or drive to climb out of the bucket and make a proper, professional rig. Any of the three is a problem.
It is easy to get “apparently proficient” at this work. It takes much more time to realize what will eventually happen. Luck and good fortune are not skill. Just because it “worked” does not make it right. Once does not make the next time assured.
Sloppy work with unnecessary risk all due the exact opposite of what the crew is rationalizing.
Tony
Chaplain242
Branched out member
Certainly increases chances that things go wrong, however there may be some skill in assessing what is possible, and familiarity with doing things that others won’t. May not be recklessness by all practitioners...
Tony
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Lancaster, PA
Fair point, but there should be a reason for not going higher, that is not related to individual skill level, or equipment. That, to my mind, is the difference between calculated and unnecessary risk.
Tony
Z'sTrees
Branched out member
- Location
- Hartsel CO
Inch as as good as a mile!
I disagree. Shaving your margin down to just a inch when there is a straight forward solution to get that mile of margin is foolish.
Chaplain242
Branched out member
Here climbing out of the bucket is a grey area as supposed to wear a fall arrest harness. Which doesn’t make a good tree harness. Or you wing it using a tree harness till some a$$ takes a photo and comments on Facebook that operator isn’t wearing a harness. In those circumstances I would take the top if I thought I would get away with it...
Tony
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Lancaster, PA
There have been many times where I put on my climbing harness, then the fall arrest, because I knew I would be leaving the bucket to finish the tree. When I climbed out, the fall arrest stayed in the lift. Not ideal, but it was a work around. When it got common I just switched to a harness that does both. Still do that to this day.
Tony
Chaplain242
Branched out member
I have confined space rigged pieces over a $150k heritage ornament against good judgement and got away with it... wouldnt recommend it - not good for the heart rhythm... there’s definitely good reasons to do it the safest way possible with least risk of damage.
However schedules and reputation can also be negatively affected by delaying, and things can go wrong climbing too.
I always weigh up the pros/cons - talking case scenarios - in some cases I have included in the quote the possible repair - especially in badly compromised trees that are a serious risk just to get down as they are hanging over a house and every option has elevated risk of having the tree just fail and cause damage even by vibrations running up tree from saw use (no direct cause of failure), and climbing is just a ridiculous risk. Sometimes taking the least damage route is all one can do...
Sometimes taking risk is the only way. Sometimes you can reduce or eliminate potenial damage risk. The key is to know the difference. In this case totally avoidable. Are you saying this was unavoidable and his only opition?
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Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
When you can safely take a large top out as shown, and that precludes the need to get out of the bucket, there is no question that taking the large top from the bucket is the safer option. Getting in and out of the bucket and climbing a tree entail risks that simply staying in the bucket does not. In the former case, the added risk is to the safety of the climber. The only added risk to taking a big top, as seen in the video is to property. Given that unarguable fact, taking large tops from the bucket is most often going to entail far less risk of human injury and death. So if that is the main priority in this work, we should be focusing on learning how to rig from the bucket and learning what the limitations of rigging big tops are. To me that was a no brainer, as long as the tree didn't have any visible defects.
Anyone that thinks that top was too large to take safely either lacks experience or is stuck in the "smaller is safer" boyscout mentality. Anyone that thinks that top was too close to the house needs more experience and more confidence. A soft top like that can brush the roof and do no damage. I've done it many times. I'd say he had a good 4 feet before he would have to worry about damaging the roof. That is plenty of margin for safety. Close is often good, not lucky. But you have to be good to understand what is possible.
The only issue here is would the rigging and the tree hold. That wasn't that big of a top. As long as he had a good blcok and rope set up, even without run, there is close to zero chance of failure in that scenario. Its often the case in this industry that those that think these high level rigs are dangerous or risky, simply lack the skill, ability and experience to perform at such a level.
You have to be good to know the difference between lucky and good. To get good, you have to see what is possible by pushing the envelope a little to find the limits of any given technique. Comprehending the many factors that influence the forces in taking tops as seen in the video, and being able to accurately estimate the trees ability to handle those forces, depending on species and condition, may simply be beyond your understanding. That doesn't make it unsafe. It may just mean that the guy who made that cut is better than you are!
Anyone that thinks that top was too large to take safely either lacks experience or is stuck in the "smaller is safer" boyscout mentality. Anyone that thinks that top was too close to the house needs more experience and more confidence. A soft top like that can brush the roof and do no damage. I've done it many times. I'd say he had a good 4 feet before he would have to worry about damaging the roof. That is plenty of margin for safety. Close is often good, not lucky. But you have to be good to understand what is possible.
The only issue here is would the rigging and the tree hold. That wasn't that big of a top. As long as he had a good blcok and rope set up, even without run, there is close to zero chance of failure in that scenario. Its often the case in this industry that those that think these high level rigs are dangerous or risky, simply lack the skill, ability and experience to perform at such a level.
You have to be good to know the difference between lucky and good. To get good, you have to see what is possible by pushing the envelope a little to find the limits of any given technique. Comprehending the many factors that influence the forces in taking tops as seen in the video, and being able to accurately estimate the trees ability to handle those forces, depending on species and condition, may simply be beyond your understanding. That doesn't make it unsafe. It may just mean that the guy who made that cut is better than you are!
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Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
Metal roof here.. brushed it multiple times and knew I would. No big deal.
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