HAAS knee ascender patent

[Steve Connally]

So at what point did you personally contact him and discuss the situation before he also invested tens of thousands of dollars into manufacturing equipment as well? None of us have the information so it seems from the third party, you let him get in full swing then sent the lawyers out as well as the non compete letters.

 

[jmaher]

. actually its a funny story.

So I made the haas and it it was working well but not good enough, I wanted to make it better. I knew as soon as guys forgot how bad body thrusting up a tree was they would realize that the haas was not perfect in operation, way better than any other option , but there was still room for improvement. . So I started playing with the idea of doubling up the bungee and terminating it at the top around a shive at th bottom and all that
.
in the prototype stage it worked well but its really hard to get stuff made in such small batches. our industry is tiny by comparison, companies want order of 10k parts. molds are expensive and the cost have to be covered by the volume. that will never happen in arb. so I had proven the concept of the Velox but could not get it to a price that I could feel ok with. I wanted it cheaper so people could afford it. my prototype was expensive. Anyway I was working on it when I get a call from a friend, he said he you have to get on the buzz and check out this video yoyo did. I got on and sure as sh$t he is holding a haas telling everyone how to make it. but in his opinion better. and he had 2 lengths of bungees in it.. I about cried. I stared down and thought i was beat to the punch.. now at this point i had patent protection, it was provisional, which mean retroactive provided I get a published patent. my wife came over to see what the deal was.. then I started looking and yoyo did not actually do anything different that my original haas. functionally it was identicle to the original. at this point I was laughing, he basically lined up 2 haas next to each other and used a weaker bungee, meaning there is no benefit at all.. he literally took my protected system added a second patented system next to it and said he invented something. its like double infringement. what was strange to me was how he convince people we are both the inventors of this, even after he himself made a video of him holding up my haas and giving me credit as the inventor and on this form.. so strange. then his next video was him selling his thing, because he realized he could make money on it, on my idea. away as soon as I had saved up enough money from haas sales to make the Velox I pulled the trigger and hoped for the best.

So... Is beranek home laughing/crying that you took what he showed.. and shoved it thru a length of Tenex?

 

[Pelorus]

I'd like to thank Treehive for taking the time to outline some of the background details to how his knee ascender concepts developed.

I think anyone who either owns both products, or has used, or has compared the Haas with the SAKA is gonna have some trouble squaring this part of the circle:
"...I started looking and yoyodid not actually do anything different that my original haas. functionally it was identicle to the original. at this point I was laughing, he basically lined up 2 haas next to each other and used aweaker bungee, meaning there is no benefit at all..."

Functionally, a pair of Carhartts is the same as a pair of Levi's.....so what's up with that? I mean, an apple isn't the same as a banana, but "functionally" they are both fruit containing minerals, fibre, vitamins, etc.

rebuild cost / bungee replacement of the Haas is what? $50?
And the SAKA?...

 

[Boomslang]

You actually had a decent story going until you started sounding like a pompous ass.

 

[jmaher]

You actually had a decent story going until you started sounding like a pompous ass.

... Right?

 

[jmaher]

Or the act of slicing bread!

 

[Kris Anderson]

Does anyone have a patent for using a lanyard over your shoulder to advance your system yet? I have seen some people climbing that way. Could be some money there....

 

[treehive]

if you are actually interested in the answer to that I can help a bit. the ansewer is no. for multiple reasons. the biggest its publically owned. you cannot take something from the public and patent it. the second reason is I don't think it is a patentable concept, this is where you would really need to know your stuff, and the third reason even if it was patentable and lets say it was, that system had been used for a long time ways past the expiration time.

 

[JustinK]

To be fair, I made my own. I've used a HAAS and SAKA. I won't say which I prefer, but it isn't mine. I know neither of you other than names on here, and didn't know who you were until this thread.

Just to be clear, it's OK that you came along and patented what was someone else's idea, but someone else builds their version to sell and its taboo? If I have my history muddied, please correct me, as the www. isn't the best place for education, but if it is how it came to be, it's a chicken chit way to do business. If someone who basically invented it earlier hadn't patented it earlier, does it make it morally right to scoop it up later and do so?

For the record, no, I don't have a patent on anything, haven't thought of any original ideas I guess.

Just sucks to see you try to squeeze innovation out. Obviously many people preferred his version.... If it was inferior to yours, it would show, (inferior products don't last long in this industry and people don't waste time on them, especially one that is supposed to save energy such as this) and people would come back to yours.





I'll await my heckling like a man. Lol

 

[Pelorus]

Greed can cloud a person's judgement.
Look at "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly". Thank goodness Clint never gave up.

 

[treehive]

To be fair, I made my own. I've used a HAAS and SAKA. I won't say which I prefer, but it isn't mine. I know neither of you other than names on here, and didn't know who you were until this thread.

Just to be clear, it's OK that you came along and patented what was someone else's idea, but someone else builds their version to sell and its taboo? If I have my history muddied, please correct me, as the www. isn't the best place for education, but if it is how it came to be, it's a chicken chit way to do business. If someone who basically invented it earlier hadn't patented it earlier, does it make it morally right to scoop it up later and do so?

For the record, no, I don't have a patent on anything, haven't thought of any original ideas I guess.

Just sucks to see you try to squeeze innovation out. Obviously many people preferred his version.... If it was inferior to yours, it would show, (inferior products don't last long in this industry and people don't waste time on them, especially one that is supposed to save energy such as this) and people would come back to yours.





I'll await my heckling like a man. Lol

no need to heck, its hurtful, unproductive and just not nice.


lets change up your scenario a bit make it a bit more interesting, again totally hypothetical. ,

what if some guy had a idea invented and patented a idea, and he did so way before a second guy saw the idea ? then what if the second guy who did not invent or patent but rather saw the idea made a video telling the world how to utilize the patented technology of the first guy?, but then he realized he could make money so he started utilizing the technology himself and selling it? and what if when it started to cause problems for this second guy meaning he was asked nicely to stop, this second guy got on social media and whined that it was unfair that he should have the right to innovate, all the while continued to utilize and sell the technology and make money. what if this second guy did this for a year because he thought the first Guy didn't have the resources to defend it in court so he continued to utilize the technology, to sell it, and to make money.. now what if the first guy got tired of asking nicely, and asked a bit not quite as nice for him to stop. and as a result the second guy got on social media and started a bunch of rumors about the first guy..

in this scenario who would have the chicken shit business model?

this is all hypotherical of course.

 

[Pelorus]

She sells seashells by the seashore. life is good; the sun is shining.

Until he told her to stop....but she didn't. It starts raining.

So he hired a bulldozer operator, and told him to crunch her damn sea shells. Thunder and Lightning! Cue the Tempest!
(btw, this is a hypothetical story)
Her sea shells are really pretty, and vaguely like his sea shells, but he says he discovered his before she discovered hers. She says c'mon mon...let's be reasonable here. But he figures the kneeshell, oops sea ascender industry is all his oyster, and why should he share a piece of the walrus when he can mebbe eat the whole marsupial? (cue orchestra to start playing "I Did It My Way", but the dummies launch into Eric Carmen's "All by Myself"). Chaos ensues. Rachmaninov turns over in his grave. (perhaps not really; remember: this is hypothetical)
Only one surf shop will carry her shells, and the other ones all have caved in (gentlemen's agreements of course) to only carry his. They are afraid of the burly bulldozer ogre, er, operator.
And now she and he won't even talk to each other or exchange hypothetical Christmas cards.

 

[macswan]

This might piss some of you off, if so I apologize for any misunderstanding of the situation that I am guilty of. And I acknowledge, that I consider mike frankhauser a close friend. So biased or not...

But I do not think that Mumford (no disrespect to you yoyo, I am just talking about the situation, if I am wrong correct me) is feeding his family with sakas.

If I were in frankhausers shoes, having found a way to make a living largely from the production of a tool that has changed climbing for a lot of people. and somebody else started making basically the same tool, I would not let it go either. I would defend mine. Because in reality, who gives a shit if people on the internet think you are a great guy. This is how I feed my kids.

He found a need and filled it and is making a living. That's the guy that gets my business.

Mumford I have no ill will toward you. I think you do a lot for the industry, and I am sure you will continue to do so. Just talking about why I am firmly in camp Haas here. Nothing else.

I probably shouldn't even open my mouth and start some shitstorm...

 

[bonner1040]

Whether Richard is buying rice and Michael is buying guns (or vice versa) has no bearing on the subject. How a person spends or saves their money doesn't reflect how they've made it.

Michael has active, granted IP, that's all that really matters here.

 

[macswan]

IP doesn't mean a whole lot from my perspective though.

 

[Steve Connally]

Not to rehash this but.........

I ate breakfast With Mike and some other guys. I didn't put 2 and 2 together until about an hour into it. Then it hit me. This is the HAAS guy. We had talked about our kids, laughed and joked. Didn't talk any tree work stuff at all. Not the ogre he's being made out to be. Such an awesome dude.

Having said that I want to apologize publicly for being an asshole and sharing an uneducated uninformed opinion about something I know nothing about in this thread. I still have my opinion but wish I had kept it to myself.

Rarely do I have an o shit I wish I hadn't opened my mouth moment but this was one of them. I was embarrassed. But what's done is done and hopefully he doesn't remember me from anything other than some guy he ate breakfast with.

Back to normal programming.

 

[Merle Nelson]

Ha,ha. Good apology.

 

[Richard Mumford-yoyoman]

Innovation by its very nature is disruptive and competitive, I'm sorry, it just is.
I wish it wasn't personal, period.

 

[oldoakman]

Not to rehash this but.........

I ate breakfast With Mike and some other guys. I didn't put 2 and 2 together until about an hour into it. Then it hit me. This is the HAAS guy. We had talked about our kids, laughed and joked. Didn't talk any tree work stuff at all. Not the ogre he's being made out to be. Such an awesome dude.

Having said that I want to apologize publicly for being an asshole and sharing an uneducated uninformed opinion about something I know nothing about in this thread. I still have my opinion but wish I had kept it to myself.

Rarely do I have an o shit I wish I hadn't opened my mouth moment but this was one of them. I was embarrassed. But what's done is done and hopefully he doesn't remember me from anything other than some guy he ate breakfast with.

Back to normal programming.

This is one reason I despise social media. I Absolutely refuse to go on Facebook as it is just too easy to be an asshole there. I always try to consider all sides before post comments. As to this specific issue, I have met Michael at a show when he was first coming out with his product, and I count Richard as a friend. I hope this issue resolves soon.

 

[John_KAYS]

Not to rehash this but.........

I ate breakfast With Mike and some other guys. I didn't put 2 and 2 together until about an hour into it. Then it hit me. This is the HAAS guy. We had talked about our kids, laughed and joked. Didn't talk any tree work stuff at all. Not the ogre he's being made out to be. Such an awesome dude.

Having said that I want to apologize publicly for being an asshole and sharing an uneducated uninformed opinion about something I know nothing about in this thread. I still have my opinion but wish I had kept it to myself.

Rarely do I have an o shit I wish I hadn't opened my mouth moment but this was one of them. I was embarrassed. But what's done is done and hopefully he doesn't remember me from anything other than some guy he ate breakfast with.

Back to normal programming.

I met him at the show as well. Nice guy! Actually, really nice guy. He really cares about his product and making it the best it can be for the climbers that use it. He even gave me a new snap for my old Haas...the new ones that are on the Velox that he had specially made with a larger opening etc. I haven't tried Richard's SAKA, but I think he is a great guy too. It is hard to deal with stuff like this, but these two products/two minds have good ideas that are similar and can help each other out...in a world removed from real life product development.