DRT

[Fairfield]

It is such a smooth soft stop! Love that!!

 

[chris_girard]

Spent the week getting SPRAT trained. DRT was pounded into my head. After a week of practicing I think it is quite doable for tree work. Would solve a lot of problems. Opens up some possibilities. I know some people here have climbed this way before. Fairfield? What has been your findings?

Would definitely slow you down initially but I could see getting quite Profficient and safer. Which is really the end goal. This is all in my head at the moment but I'm going to give it a go. Its weird after taking the class I will feel naked jumping on a single line.

This is all in my head at the moment. Just thoughts. ill keep people posted on how I fair.

I too have been SPRAT certified from the same people as you Kevin and by no means see DRT as ever having a place in the tree care industry for the day to day worker, even after reading through this entire thread. I also completely agree with DSMc's comment above.

I don't feel naked on SRT, in fact I feel liberated.

 

[Fairfield]

I have been giving this topic thought for way longer then it has been talked about on this site. Although I feel it is safer for 90% of the time to be working with two independent lines (personal view), I don't think it will ever make a difference to make it a mandatory thing in any profession. Although in Rope Access work it is hard to find climbers only on one line it doesn't mean they don't do it from time to time or have that one guy that just does not care. Mainly we know in the area of climbing if you want a job you will follow the rules that are strictly enforced. tree work though it would take changing a whole culture of climbers. You would be highly challenged to make some climbers climb SRT over Dbrt let alone two independent lines. I say we leave it with this, if you feel safe the way you are climbing right now then stick with it, if you want to learn a new way then by all means go for it but start slow and low. I love Rope Access and that way of working on rope but in no way want to see it viewed by any climbing group as the forceful big brother. I will say though I did climb today with two lines as if I was work climbing a large oak. It was sweet to have the second line used to balance my self out in certain spots out on tips! Take what others have as ideas and dont throw them out before giving them a chance. The majority will be not so great but you never know when that one idea will change your way of doing something forever...... We all do love the Wrench..... who would have thought that without seeing it and trying it?

 

[treebing]

DRT as we were taught in SPRAT is not very efficient. But The mentality of DRT I totally agree with and buy into.

I have been slowed down a bit bit By DRT but can go more places in the canopy.

The advantages are many not to mention my own personal safety level has increased as I was an SRT cheater before. I love it so far.

 

[treebing]

http://treebuzz.com/forum/threads/seconds-or-weeks.27456/#post-384640

This is another example, could very well have been me climbing SRT.

I'm going to compare it with wearing chainsaw pants vs. strapping on chaps every time I am supposed to be wearing them.

 

[DSMc]

... But The mentality of DRT I totally agree with and buy into.
... my own personal safety level has increased as I was an SRT cheater before...

Everybody would like to make the world a better and safer place. Before you start spouting off about how much safer one system is over another you might want to back up a bit and wonder, how safe it would have been if you had used what was already available to you properly.

You are comparing the misuse of one system to the correct use of another system. Is it a surprise that one of the systems appear less safe? And even with that, you are still totally missing the point of why the two systems, tree work systems and industrial rope access systems, developed in different directions.

David

 

[treebing]

Dave, I am not telling anyone what's safer for anyone. I am saying I have very bad habits as an SRT climber. Not your fault. I have fixed that for myself. If you are safe SRT than that's wonderful.

When I have to put on chaps, quite often I pick up a saw and forget my chaps. If I wear chainsaw pants out the door when I leave the house. Its not something I worry about.

I am simply sharing a technique that I have found that seems to work for me. I got some training recently that really opened my mind to a lot of concepts. If it doesn't work for you, I don't have a problem with that.

One of the concepts that I thought a lot about was that climbing for work is not about feeling liberated its about coming home at the end of the day. It really made me gut check a lot of my practices.
I have a good track record at work, I have never fallen out of a tree or cut myself. I have severed over half of my line once with my silky.

My only injuries though have come from lifting heavy logs and cutting off the tip of my pinky pruning hedges. But I know where I cut corners. I also watch other climbers and I see where they cut corners.

I don't care how you make it home everyday as long as you do. I am just sharing ideas that I am experimenting with for making sure I do.

 

[treebing]

Outside of that, I am finding DRT to give me greater access to the canopy which is my bread and butter.

 

[treebing]

I also don't see how industrial rope access and tree work are that different. Would you care to explain? Obviously there are differences in the shape of the structures we climb but there are some pretty odd looking buildings and bridges out there. I found them to be much closer to eachother than tree work and rock climbing which is a recreational endeavor.

 

[DSMc]

Dave, I am not telling anyone what's safer for anyone...

Actually, yes, you are. You are posting your thoughts on this in many different threads and on different forums without taking the time to qualify your statements as you did above. Doing so brings confusion and doubt to climbers or administrators who have not heard the rest of the story. That is not the way to make things safer.

 

[treebing]

Okay, I'm excited about it. What do you want me to do? I believe if a lot of climbers look at their work practices, they might realize they are taking shortcuts like I was.
If you are disciplined and your brain is not wired like mine, and you never yield your sharp tools without a back up, or tie in to skinny suckers, or end up untied, than you can tune me out.

I have never felt so good about any of the changes in my work practice since I started climbing and I have been climbing a long time and I change up my style a lot. So yeah I'm going to talk about it. I have over 3000 posts on treebuzz. I love this place and I use it daily. My wife has been getting sick of me talking about DRT too, but she does like the idea of me using and having two ropes.

Its a very simple concept, not new. Its brand new to me but I don't understand why you are confused.

 

[DSMc]

I also don't see how industrial rope access and tree work are that different. Would you care to explain?...

Take off the agenda-driven glasses and maybe you will see more clearly. Arborists work in a rope-friendly, softly-rounded, flexible environment. When compared to what industrial rope access climbers have to deal with, trees are closer to the ground with a closed-in, convoluted structure. So right off the bat, things are very different.

Industrial access: Hard anchors allow mathematically repeatable force calculations on which to base gear design. Potential of hundreds of feet of travel that make static work lines the logical choice. Enter kernmantel. Buildable to specific elongation factors with a sheath that is very abrasion resistant but has a known and predictable load, at which, separates from the core and safely dissipates energy. But now the rope is damaged. What to do? Enter second rope. Built and used for one purpose. Not as an everyday work line but as a non- weighted (less likely to be damaged from constant abrasion ) line that will also absorb shock load without sustaining damage.

This is a very well thought out system and functions great within its design parameters.

Tree work: Soft, often flexible, anchors of highly variable and hard-to-judge strength and often with only one good choice. Combined with variable friction this makes mathematical load/force calculations unreliable. To protect not only the climber but the TIP itself, a system was required that was based on slack removal and built in shock absorption that did not damage the rope. We are not as vulnerable to system failure through abrasion or high fall factor. We are vulnerable to damage to ourselves or our equipment when at a work station. Thus, the "always tie in twice" when cutting.

I can keep on going all day long here but, hopefully, you get the point.

David

 

[treebing]

I didnt know ART and petzl where comfortable with there products(spider jack, lock jack,zig zag) being used in SRT, just curious where did you see that bro.

Kevin i wanna see how your climbing now. I can def see different possibilities, but i see a lot more set up time (Which for me is the easiest way to waste time in tree work). .

This is the thing that I am struggling with the most. But I think if I can figure out the routine and dial it in it there will not be much lost time. I have lost a huge amount of time this last couple of weeks working with and changing my set up every two seconds.

I spent all this last week working DRT with two wrench setups in preparation for the MTCC, so I really was able to dial in a few things, and get my set up down to master challenge levels. Maintaining it and keeping it in order will be a challenge.


Descent is fine. I honestly don't think it would dramatically affect my time on a work climb.

Redirecting is better by far. I never find myself perched out on a limb, not weighted on my rope trying to throw my device over the tips of some branch. This fact alone has made the experiment worthwhile so far.

Work positioning is better. Limb walks is better.

Managing ropes is Definitly not as bad as it seems it would be. The advantages become quickly apparent.

My ascent is way slowed down but its not harder. I need to figure out a good ascent. Ascending both lines at once with two pantins does not work as I hoped because if you unweight one rope all the stretch goes out. And then you have to tension it again, its like two rubber bands. It's very inefficient that way.

So far that's my feedback. More tree work next week.

 

[treebing]

We are vulnerable to damage to ourselves or our equipment when at a work station. Thus, the "always tie in twice" when cutting.

I can keep on going all day long here but, hopefully, you get the point.

David

We are back to this, I don't find the SRT method of doing this practical or effecient, I never have and neither did the people who trained me even though they talked it. Its a perfectly good way of doing it if you do it.

 

[Rich_O]

Kevin have you posted any video of you climbing DRT ?

 

[treebing]

No, this is still new to me. Videos now would not put it in a great light! But it looks like I may have to do so soon so as not to confuse anyone.

 

[Rich_O]

No, this is still new to me. Videos now would not put it in a great light! But it looks like I may have to do so soon so as not to confuse anyone.

Looking forward to one. Since the weather is finally getting nice here hopefully you could do one in the near future. If you need any help let me know.

 

[Fairfield]

With regards to the point made or comparison of industrial to tree climbing anchors and CODs, I would argue that the more "unknown" of trees and the canopy could be reason enough to say that tree work by nature is more dangerous by nature. We could do drop test at different fall factors with one person loads or rescue loads. The anchors vary so much and the natural crotch COD over the different types of commercial setups will vary the response of what may happen. It would be a very bold statement to say that trees are a softer or more friendly to rope. Over a sharp metal edge well of course, but honestly trained industrial climbers will avoid that with similar CODs that you can find tree guys using. Is a tree softer? naturally, although that does not mean that they have less give then a I beam. Be careful of what you state that may be taken by younger newer climbers as fact. They may take your word for it and have them self placed in a bad situation. Keep in mind also, industrial climbing has a world wide safety record that cant be touched by the tree industry or any other industry world wide for that matter.

I do have a question though (open to anyone that may know). What are the bridges constructed of from manufacturer (rope bridges). With the explosion of SRT climbers on the scene I dont hear much talk about climbers being advised to use dynamic lines. Anyone know, and thoughts about it.

 

[Reg]

Is a tree softer? naturally, although that does not mean that they have less give then a I beam. Be careful of what you state that may be taken by younger newer climbers as fact. They may take your word for it and have them self placed in a bad situation.

What situation did you have in mind ?

 

[Reg]

Id be more concerned about a new climber taking all this literally, becoming a worrywart their self and trying to implement DRT into everything....and then getting fired for lack of production.