DMM throw hook.

Ok, I hadn't looked at the safety diagrams that come with the hook in awhile, the use of a progress capture is implied in the drawings since the climber's hands are not on the hook line. Obviously overall they're saying don't put everything on the hook. I guess strictly speaking the 10mm Sirius RS is an accessory cord but a certain amount of the time using the hook it's functioning like a climbing line, taking a lot of load and I'm operating the system like a climbing line or long lanyard (same thing in my book).
 
moss said:
Ok, I hadn't looked at the safety diagrams that come with the hook in awhile, the use of a progress capture is implied in the drawings since the climber's hands are not on the hook line. Obviously overall they're saying don't put everything on the hook. I guess strictly speaking the 10mm Sirius RS is an accessory cord but a certain amount of the time using the hook it's functioning like a climbing line, taking a lot of load and I'm operating the system like a climbing line or long lanyard (same thing).
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Right, no part of the system should exceed the rating listed on the hardware, that's why Reep Schnur is ideal and is sold in the kit.


Reed Wortley
ISA CA# SO-6953A
CTSP # 01739
 
Worthaug said:
Right, no part of the system should exceed the rating listed on the hardware, that's why Reep Schnur is ideal and is sold in the kit.


Reed Wortley
ISA CA# SO-6953A
CTSP # 01739
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Nothing like getting smacked in the face with a broken hook... Honestly though, in what circumstance would a person break a hook? Anyone pulled a tree over with one yet?
 
colb said:
Nothing like getting smacked in the face with a broken hook... Honestly though, in what circumstance would a person break a hook? Anyone pulled a tree over with one yet?
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It would be fun to pull test one to see where it would fail. I'm guessing the cordage or stitched eye goes first.

So the question (in my mind) is... since the hook is ridiculously robust, is it not safe PPE simply because it is not a closed system, ie the hook is not "locking" around the limb?
-AJ
 
moss said:
[snip]
So the question (in my mind) is... since the hook is ridiculously robust, is it not safe PPE simply because it is not a closed system, ie the hook is not "locking" around the limb?
-AJ
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Good question. That's been my thinking. I don't have a good point to make about it other than I watch the risk of possible swing backs.
 
I've wondered if DMM kept the break strength low so it wouldn't be used for ppe because it is an open system.
I've used a 3/16 dyneema covered rope and 9mm HTP and like the stiffness of the 9 for maneuvering and retrieving the Hook.
Progress capture is needed in case you have to take both hands off the rope mid traverse.
I've torn up the covers on ropes traversing with a foot ascender because of the angles the rope enters it. I started just using the one foot footlock which is nicer on the rope.
A method of traversing that I used when first doing it with a homemade grapple was instead of inching my way over by dropping then pulling on the rope and repeating, was to simply swing over to the other tree and lanyard in.

@Scottyrunner100 I was wondering which Sterling 8mm cord you were referring to that has that high of a breaking strength.
 
Thanks, that must have been a misprint. I also looked at their website and noticed that some of the breaking strengths of certain accessory cords have changed, and their Powercord also, which is about 300# less now.
 
hey guys , interesting topics that have been brought up
moss said:
Now we're getting somewhere. People are using the hook in a way that blurs the line, myself included. For example in all the DMM hook demo videos I've seen the climbers are only using the hook in a way where they are pulling themselves by hand across from point A to point B. Once you add foot ascender, progress captures/hitches etc. you're blurring the line. Once you put more load on the hook than you can hold with just your hands and arms are you now using as a climbing line instead of an accessory line? If you're using a progress capture and climbing nearly vertically on the hook line and something breaks what's happening on swingback on your climbing line? Big impact on limbs or trunk?
-AJ
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I think its more being safe incase of a potential "letting go of the rope " than not being able to hold ones weight. With traversing there is a lot of adjusting of angles along the way and it really is upto the climbers to inform themselves on forces exerted on anchors to judge how far they should push it ...... anything above 120 degrees is putting the climbers weight upon both anchors and add that to the leverage of the limbs etc the force can really add up. http://www.treekit.com/blog/jesse-coleman-climbing-with-a-hook/ heres a little article I wrote a while back which covers a few bits and bobs, nothing exceptionally detailed but someone may pick up something.
 
colb said:
On the other hand, the hook often encourages compression between limbs and/or trunk...
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Really good point.

Earlier I said the hook is pretty shitty in conifers (spruce) - well I had to get better at that particular job (because I had to keep going back) - so I did get better at it. Sometimes if I'm close enough to the top of the other spruce - I'll use the hook to pull the whole top of the tree over to the tree that I'm in (and not even have to climb into it).

On other unspecified use (at least according to the manual) - I've hooked branch that I can't even see (nor easily be able to loosen the hook from again) for the spruce needles blocking the view. I've descended, then traversed on them. Always attached to my main tie in. I know this is still risky with regards to possible traverse point break out.

It is rare that I've used the hook in exactly the manner that the manual specifies. The trees I climb didn't grow according to a manual - I suspect the trees everyone else climbs don't either. Obviously - I would always want to be able to see exactly what the hook is on - though in spruce I don't always get that. I know in that case - I have to quantify and assess the possible repercussions of possible traverse break out, take other steps to minimise the risk of it happening (minimise line tension, traverse lower, ect) and be ready to mitigate the possible damage to myself and the trees.

After traverse, many times I will still ascend vertically with my full weight on the hook. It is much quicker and easier than any other method to ascend the tree. Obviously I still have my main tie on the other tree. I can always use my lanyard as well if I want.

You can tell me I'm doing wrong, ect... though I defy you not to start bending (or breaking) the rules with this amazing tool.
 
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Each to their own...

Thanks for the blog colemanjessenz - I read it all - good stuff.

With all the DSRT and Traverse talk - I feel a lot of people are highlighting the critical angles (rightly so) of tensions between two tie-in's. I do feel that a lot of it is (or hope it would be) common sense though. When you are traversing, you should know intuitively if you are putting too much tension on your lines (or in particular, your tie-in points) - it's all part of constantly assessing the strengths (and weaknesses) of the parts of the tree as you are climbing on it.
 
swingdude said:
I loved that amazing tool so much I sold it.....
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I am curious as to why you wouldn't love it though - I would have thought you would. I'd like to know - tell me, tell me! :) What alternatives do you use instead?

Edit: Nevermind - I just reread your post in Treebay; different sorts of trees I guess, with a difference in tools preference.
 
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People under utilise the hook by using it with a seperate line imo. I've always used the tail of my line, so its been able to be a permeant fixture on my harness for the last three or four years, it gets used a lot more for other jobs in the tree than it does for traversing.. @123Craig I totally agree with you bro, its defiantly should be but its incredible how many people have very little info about these things.
 
Wow - @colemanjessenz - I've only used a hook for less than six months; You've used one for 3-4 years! I realise that in your blog, the photos don't feature the dmm hook (I see the Epple) - though with that length of usage - you'll have knowledge and experience way beyond most here; feel free to ramble on brother - I'm a sponge! :)

In the last paragraph of your blog you briefly touch on the multitude of things the hook can be used for (though wasn't necessarily designed for). I realise that in blogs (and on here) - nobody wants to be seen as to be promoting something that could be potentially unsafe; I too am slightly reluctant - though when it comes to this tool - I feel that the unorthodox use should be recorded more somewhat.
 
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Right on Jesse, keep it on the harness and watch that little wooden ball (Epple hook) darken with use, I just love it. I've loaned out my Red Thing cause I missed the Epple.
Re. traversing styles, I always try to avoid too much vertical ascent on the hook, more a descent (70degrees)/ascent (120degrees)/repeat.
I never got into throwing bother with my Epple and pretty much can control the setting, near/far, up/down, whatever...even in bushy Cryptomeria. The Red Thing not so. While the Red Thing does have an amazing magnetic quality it does seem to want to stay put in the wrong place a little too often.
I run a cinch on 9mm semi static and it forms into many useful rigging, Triangulating Work Positions being an important one.
 
I really like the epple, its much lighter and has a slightly larger opening than the captain, the extra weight of the captan would come in handy if you were to throw further but i don't believe that you should be doing mega traverses over 5 meters anyway...... in saying that my experience with the captan is very limited so i can't do a running comparison but the weight thing for me is a big factor as i have it on the harness at all times.
Having a hook with you more will open up a new way of climbing and save you a lot of effort for example when retrieving hangers or snapping out odd bits of deadwood you may have missed on the other side of the tree...... but there goes the rambling again haha i feel like a broken record sometimes.
I think from a safety point of view , the hook is in itself an unorthodox bit of equipment when used incorrectly .... I think those things i mention don't exert anywhere near the amount of force that traversing does if I'm understanding you craig? ......I use hook just like a massive pole saw except without the pita of carrying it around with you.


This is my normal use of the hook for traversing through multiple trees..... I have also found a pretty practical way of doing a top tie retrievable srt version too which uses a seperate leg of line but the same rope.
 
SoftBankHawks said:
Right on Jesse, keep it on the harness and watch that little wooden ball (Epple hook) darken with use, I just love it. I've loaned out my Red Thing cause I missed the Epple.
Re. traversing styles, I always try to avoid too much vertical ascent on the hook, more a descent (70degrees)/ascent (120degrees)/repeat.
I never got into throwing bother with my Epple and pretty much can control the setting, near/far, up/down, whatever...even in bushy Cryptomeria. The Red Thing not so. While the Red Thing does have an amazing magnetic quality it does seem to want to stay put in the wrong place a little too often.
I run a cinch on 9mm semi static and it forms into many useful rigging, Triangulating Work Positions being an important one.
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Haha, looks like you beat me too it paul :tanguero: I never use the hook for unaided vertical ascent but I do however use it sometimes like say how a tower climber uses a hook.
normally its when moving up a few meters (after traversing into another tree ) to my next main anchor and its used as an added safety in combination with my mainline and lanyard.
 
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