Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

Hey Mark, sorry if you thought I came across as arguing that last thing I would want to do on here is that, especially with you. Round slings also have a 5:1 design factor for their working capacity it's an industry standard for slings other than chain which are 4:1. (i just found that out tonite as well!) Allmarks video is sweet. It shows a well worn round sling with a max break strength of 42,000lbs which makes for a wll of 8400lbs the thing broke at 33,000lbs or 75 percent thats awesome if it where new it would have broke around 42,000. The new piece of 1/2" Amsteel with a 34,000lbs max break strength which was knotted broke at the knot at 15,000lbs pounds this is less than the 50 percent rule it actually should have parted at 17,000lbs I would have bet money on it. So if you didn't realize it already that 34,000lb capacity Amsteel when used at 5:1 realizing you are going to be knotting it is good for 3,000 lbs. or 20percent of where the one in the video broke at 15,000lbs. Thanks for the video Almark that was extremely useful, this was driving me crazy. Again sorry if anyone took my curiosity the wrong way. Another note I learned that if that old round sling in the test had ever exceeded it's lifting capacity by 10percent it would not work as a fair example and where Kbooms don't display wieghts of piks it might be fair to assume it had. It performed well for it's condition though, I was surprised.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

Oh yeah, you asked about a sling with a 9800lb capacity in a choke you must double the choked configuration making it 19,600 then multiply it by 5 which would get you a tensile strenght of 98,000lbs. Lets see if Almark can test it for us I loved that, although it would probably break the 1" attachment point on the machine. I hope this helps.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

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That being said, what are we all arguing about?

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We seem to be discussing tensile strength, but the orignal post was about the fact that its against craning rules to use knots for rigging and solutions for that.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

Sinko...I didnt think it was argueing..just a good discussion.

Classic.. It is also against craning rules to hoist personell except in an approved man basket. No crane manufacturer would allow it. We however have the ansi standards which allow it with certain conditions applicable to our industry,we are trying to create rules allowing safe practice for our applications.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

I used a chain with a oval ring on each end for big pieces alot. They are heavier and harder to rig but still safe in most applications. I dont use it much anymore because there are so many slings available now that are much more user friendly and still strong.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

They are defimitly heavier & harder to set/ I was thinkin about the adjustability factor from one leg to the other/ used some this summer, sure enjoyed em'.I bielve they were good for 13k a leg. I enjoy listenin' to everyone chattin/ Some folks sure have some swwwwwwwwwwwwwweet iron/ would love to work under the hook of some of that new fangled gear/ K- Boom is the newest rave ???. We sure get a lotta coin wrapped up in our toys these days/ I meant to say thanks the other day to all the folks that shared the videos on cranin'.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

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Sinko...I didnt think it was argueing..just a good discussion.

Classic.. It is also against craning rules to hoist personell except in an approved man basket. No crane manufacturer would allow it. We however have the ansi standards which allow it with certain conditions applicable to our industry,we are trying to create rules allowing safe practice for our applications.

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Ontario regulation says personell in an engineered sturcture can be hoisted, they consider our saddles to be engneered structures.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

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... but when you combine two industries and one has rules where the other doesn't you follow those rules.

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Without drawing up some heat over here, I'm simply pointing out the conflict of two industries merging together with different rules for rigging.
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My crane guy has about 450 tree removals under his belt (and counting fast). He is a 2nd generation crane operator. He's been operating a crane since he was wet behind the ears.
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He is also nationally certifited to certify crane operators. He brought this very subject up to me.

Basically, he is stating that we (as in he and I) may continue to tie off loads with knots, but I must accept full responsibility for my decision to disobey the crane industry standard. Which is; rigging shall not be tied to the loads.

He is also telling me this to protect my hid in the event of a terrible accident where a formal investigation would have to take place. Therefore, if such an event happened, and I knowingly disobeyed a crane industry standard, then what happens to me? What happens to him?
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

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What is everyones take on chain ?

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You know, I used to hate the idea of them, but I was forced to chain something because I ran out of length on my chokers.
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It was about a 4' diameter choke on a 9,000lb spar. While tied into the crane I stood on top of the spar (practically a side walk on top of a totem pole). I simply made a choke in the chain, while on the spar, and drapped it over the top of the spar. I was surprisingly easy.

For all other applications, I'm not a fan.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

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It was recommended to me to use a 7/1 if the fiber is high-tech and not covered.

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Interesting. My crane guy wants my rigging to have it tagged at a factor of 9:1.
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Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

James, you think that chain bites pretty good in the wood ? I was chattin' with a longshoreman the other day he said in maritime they use rope knots ect... Not sure to what extent.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

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Oh yeah, you asked about a sling with a 9800lb capacity in a choke you must double the choked configuration making it 19,600 then multiply it by 5 which would get you a tensile strenght of 98,000lbs. Lets see if Almark can test it for us I loved that, although it would probably break the 1" attachment point on the machine. I hope this helps.

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I am not ssure I agree Sinko. As I said before, I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that a sling with a choker rating of 9800# would have a tensile of 61250#, not 98000#.

As I understand it, slings get an MBS rating. Then the vertical rating is at 5/1 (for most apps.) then the choker rating is typically 80% of vertical unless the manufacturer assigns a different rating based on use and/or materials.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

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Basically, he is stating that we (as in he and I) may continue to tie off loads with knots, but I must accept full responsibility for my decision to disobey the crane industry standard. Which is; rigging shall not be tied to the loads.

He is also telling me this to protect my hid in the event of a terrible accident where a formal investigation would have to take place. Therefore, if such an event happened, and I knowingly disobeyed a crane industry standard, then what happens to me? What happens to him?

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He can't do this, once a load is on the hook its solely the crane operators responsablity, if a sling breaks because it was knotted its his fault, not yours. So nothing or very little would happen to you, all of the blame would be on him as the operator.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

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James, you think that chain bites pretty good in the wood ? I was chattin' with a longshoreman the other day he said in maritime they use rope knots ect... Not sure to what extent.

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I would think chain slings would bite in fairly well, I've never used them so I wouldn't know. They aren't as commonly used here as they are in other places, until recently we used 5/8" wire rope slings and they really bit in well, rarely a need to notch in the slings.

I think the reason there aren't any real rules for arborist rigging is the same reason an excavator operator doesn't need a crane operator licence. The regulatons here say that an excavator lowering a sewer pipe into a hole doesn't require a crane operator, but if you have to lift it out for any reason you do need one, even with the excavator doing the lifting. So if you follow the same principals then when we are lowering blocks or brush on a line there aren't any regulations. Which gets me thinking if anybody gets in trouble using a lifting device, they may ask for your crane licence, probably not but a smart lawyer might.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

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Oh yeah, you asked about a sling with a 9800lb capacity in a choke you must double the choked configuration making it 19,600 then multiply it by 5 which would get you a tensile strenght of 98,000lbs. Lets see if Almark can test it for us I loved that, although it would probably break the 1" attachment point on the machine. I hope this helps.

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I am not ssure I agree Sinko. As I said before, I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that a sling with a choker rating of 9800# would have a tensile of 61250#, not 98000#.

As I understand it, slings get an MBS rating. Then the vertical rating is at 5/1 (for most apps.) then the choker rating is typically 80% of vertical unless the manufacturer assigns a different rating based on use and/or materials.

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Mark, you are correct I knew those numbers didn't sound right after I read my post I should have checked my work. I'm glad you did though, But going forward it will be easy to calculate the tensile strength of round slings. I learned alot from this thread, very cool. Thank you all.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

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I understand that it can be rated for knots, but is it. Sounds as though you have some experience with breaking one. I would love to hear more about how that happened as well if you could share? Allmark, you are the third person on here that is using these but cannot tell me definatively if this is how they are rated. How can you not know this? I can understand how you might break one though. I will contact some manufacturers next week. All this just makes me more and more curious and i'm not even using them. I appreciate your response.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxTPHNMr9S8

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Allmark, again cool video maybe not to most people surfin youtube but it really made alot of sense. When can we break some more stuff??? Next time take the guard off so we can see the slings part though. Also, I am curious if the clove hitch had been backed up by two half hitches if it's capacity would have increase at the knot. How about this thought? Climbing lines need to be rated for 5400lbs? Is that knotted strength? Which means Climbers are only climbing on lines rated at 2700lbs. How about haveing a spliced eye on one end which doesn't reduce lines capacity and a prussic on the other end as many climbers do. At what capacity does this system fail? Maybe this is all for another forum. I want to break more stuff!!! I love that machine. What made you experiment with that in the first place?
 

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