Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

I don't want to be the only one to say that this is so. Because it sort of limits our creative rigging choices that we may prefer to do.

For those who are actually interested, go to the link I provided and check to see if I am understanding the context of this. Because, if I am mistaken, I'd like to know.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

Hi Jamin,

The gentlemen I spoke to is:
Director / Mid-Atlantic Trainer

NCCCO Certified Rigger/ NCCCO Rigger Examiner

That is all I can say about him. He answered my questions and said that we are complying.

Your link is interesting. Try this one: http://www.osha.gov/dsg/guidance/slings/nat-synth-fiber.html

It just states that you cannot use knots to shorten rigging. I would like to see it when talking about end attachments.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

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It just states that you cannot use knots to shorten rigging

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Well in a sence you just stated we can not use knots to tie to the limb. I can not use a knot to shorten my lead lines, so make a hitch followed by a run bow 15 foot on a 20 foot line is wrong.???? One line will always need to be shorter than an other one, if you want it to come off balanced.

Either way I'll be sticking to using knots somewheres, it needed otherwise you need a whole slue of diff length straps, and tring to find the right fit. No thanks.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

It is confusing Ed, and I am not 100% set yet, but the BSME states that you cannot shorten a sling with a knot, meaning you cannot tie a knot in the middle of a sling to make it shorter (like asn overhand knot or similar). I am trying to get an answer about tying a knot to secure a load. That is what I asked and that is what the cco guy said was approved by OSHA. I am going to try another source.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

[ QUOTE ]
Your link is interesting. Try this one: http://www.osha.gov/dsg/guidance/slings/nat-synth-fiber.html

It just states that you cannot use knots to shorten rigging. I would like to see it when talking about end attachments.

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Yep. In my reading today, I found your link as well. But, it wasn't the answer I needed. As I think I have found, we may not be complying with tieing off loads.

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Just a reminder: in the context of "Rigging Equipment for Material Handeling" in the 29 CFR, reference 1926.251(d)(2)(v) it reads, "Knots shall not be used in lieu of splices." I had to make sure I understood the wording "in lieu" correctly and it can be understood as "in place of" or "instead of." My French was lacking, so I had to look it up.
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Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

to adjust sling lengths on regular crane rigging jobs i used properly sized come a longs, but that is a whole different world
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

1926.251(d)(2)
All splices in rope slings provided by the employer shall be made in accordance with fiber rope manufacturers recommendations.
1926.251(d)(2)(iv)
For all eye splices, the eye shall be sufficiently large to provide an included angle of not greater than 60 deg. at the splice when the eye is placed over the load or support.
1926.251(d)(4)(iv)
Fiber rope slings shall have a minimum clear length of rope between eye splices equal to 10 times the rope diameter
The employer shall have each synthetic web sling marked or coded to show:
1926.251(e)(1)(i)
Name or trademark of manufacturer.
1926.251(e)(1)(ii)
Rated capacities for the type of hitch.


Here is some more info. The angles of splice are important to know.

As far as the knots how about interpretation. 1926.251e 1 ii making it legal to use a "Clove Hitch" as an attatchment point...or a "Cow Hitch" Technically this would be acceptable?
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

Mark M. Good question with that rule. I sort of thought the same, but in the crane industry I thought they only actknowledge 3 configuarations for chokers. (Read further down on that link and see the tables. Table H-18 is what my concer is mainly about, but the principle applies to all chokers).

Sure this rule (below) leaves it open as to which type of hitch. We can either have a vertical hitch, choker hitch, or a basket hitch. The crane industry doesn't acknowledge a clove, cow, or timber hitch (and many others that we may like to use).

1926.251(e)(1)(ii)

"Rated capacities for the type of hitch."

We've all seen the tags before. None of them have a cow, clove, timber, etc... on the tag.

So, until OSHA changes what type of hitch we use, it doesn't appear that we can indeed use a knot to tie off a load. And it appears that we cannot attache a load with out a basket, choker or vertical hitch.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

If you had the manufacturer test and tag those slings in cow, clove etc. then they would be legal by OSHA. They may not want to though because then the responsability would be on them if you didn't tie it right and it broke or pulled out.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

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to adjust sling lengths on regular crane rigging jobs i used properly sized come a longs, but that is a whole different world

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Jeff. I like the creativity there. Being able to adjust a choker length on demand would be cool, but it is not compliant.

But, you were joking right?
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Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

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If you had the manufacturer test and tag those slings in cow, clove etc.

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Great point James. I thought that too. However, it doesn't look like OSHA allows any other hitches to be used. Can any one find what hitches are acceptable besides the vertical, choker, and basket (according to OSHA)?

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... They may not want to though because then the responsability would be on them if you didn't tie it right and it broke or pulled out.

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Yep. A manufacturer may not feel comfortable with doing that because OSHA doesn't seem to acknowledge other hitch configurations.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

Not using a knot in lieu of a splice I believe means that you cannot tie say a bowline and then use that to create a girth hitch. I believe it is in place because that would then limit your capacity an additional say 50%.

I emailed the rigging expert again on this and he said [ QUOTE ]
If the sling has an eye one end and the other end is just a Bitter end, then you would have to put a hitch in it. You must also take your deductions from working load limit for what you are doing. If the sling has a eye each end, you cannot put a knot in it. That would then put you in violation of ASME B30.9 - It says that you cannot make a sling by putting a knot in it.

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Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

Why can't you use a combination? Use regular slings for the bulk weight, and adjustable legs for stability.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

no i wasn't kidding. i have also used em to take the roll out of piece of iron when flying it. but for tree work i think its over kill. whats the biggest piece of tree you've taken on a crane? not including trunk i'm at about 3000lbs i was taught to make more smaller cuts than to have to over rig everything and groundmen like smaller cuts or so i'm told
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

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Why can't you use a combination? Use regular slings for the bulk weight, and adjustable legs for stability.

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True.
 
Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

[ QUOTE ]
Not using a knot in lieu of a splice I believe means that you cannot tie say a bowline and then use that to create a girth hitch. I believe it is in place because that would then limit your capacity an additional say 50%.

I emailed the rigging expert again on this and he said [ QUOTE ]
If the sling has an eye one end and the other end is just a Bitter end, then you would have to put a hitch in it. You must also take your deductions from working load limit for what you are doing. If the sling has a eye each end, you cannot put a knot in it. That would then put you in violation of ASME B30.9 - It says that you cannot make a sling by putting a knot in it.

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He is logically concluding what we would all naturally conclude. If one was using a one eyed sling, to tie off loads, then we'd obviously have to use a knot or hitch to pick up that load... He simply stated a fact from an observation. He did not say whether or not we would be in compliance with OSHA or not.

1926.251(d) From the 29 CFR:

Natural rope, and synthetic fiber-

1926.251(d)(1)

General. When using natural or synthetic fiber rope slings, Tables H-15, 16, 17, and 18 shall apply.

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And in these tables, OSHA only acknowledges eye and eye or endless slings. --That's it. They do not acknowledge one spliced end and the bitter end abscent of a splice. (I think the tree industry has carried these types of slings over to crane work undetected. Safely, performed, but not compliant).

The whole purpose of this thread is to get to to bottom of how many of us are performing our crane assisted tree removals with great intensions, but are unaware of OSHA's regulations for tieing off loads. Or, in their words, "material handeling."

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By no means am I trying to get people to stop tieing off loads with what ever hitch or knot they want to use. Heck, I used to love being able to use a running bowline on the loads to adjust the length of slings.
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But, now that I have seen the regulation, I'm changing the way I tie off loads. Simply put.
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I had to come to the reality that I may very well get an OSHA audit some day and there isn't one thing I want to do that isn't compliant with OSHA. (In my town, I am the only one who uses a crane on a regular basis. A crane standing 120' in the air gets a lot of attention...)
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Re: Crane Rigging & Knots in Them

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But, now that I have seen the regulation, I'm changing the way I tie off loads. Simply put.
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REALLY???!

the heck with that!

I'll always do what I think is best, safest and practical in the real world of actual work and not adjust my work ways because of something that they haven't written or included yet in their accepted practices.
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