Blaze and ZigZag okay in comps?

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Is there a strength rating on the RIG or the ID or the gri-gri? or for that matter any figure eight you own?

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Just FYI .......
I have a couple CT plain figure-8's that have "kN35" on them.
I also have a couple CT Rescue-8's (w/ ears) that have "40 kN" on them.
 
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in what configuration would you like to know the strength?

T6 temper 7075 has an ultimate tensile strength of 74,000–78,000 psi (510–572 MPa) and yield strength of at least 63,000–69,000 psi (434–503 MPa). It has a failure elongation of 5–11%

You can do the math to see how strong each particular component in the zig zag.

what Im saying is that the strength of aluminum and stainless steel is known just as much as the strength of your hitch cord. Probably more so. Petzl doesnt need to write that on the side of their device when you can get that information anywhere.

You could break it end to end but I don't know what that would tell you.

There is a guide in the zig zag instructions that lists at what weight it slips at with different sized rope I believe. I don't know how you would do it any other way. How do you test it to break without testing it in a contrived and wrong configuration?

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Kevin, this has to be one of the most thoughtless posts I have ever read. The fact that it is coming from you, makes it even worse.

The Zig-Zag is a primary life-support component, manufactured from a combination of materials, that has multiple moving parts and your argument is, we should just " do the math "! Really!

Using that logic there is certainly no need to test those aluminum rings because we can just look at the charts and " know " how strong they are. Good luck with that one.

Carabiners are not just tested along their strongest axis but in all directions even those that would be considered misuse. This is done because experience has shown us that in our industry, tools are constantly being exposed to improper use, either by choice or by accident. This is also one of the reasons why tools we use are built stronger than needed for their intended use.

The other is, cycles to failure. It does not matter that the strength of a new lowering line far exceeds the loads achievable when it is anchored to a tree, what matters is it possesses enough of a safety margin to compensate for the wear and tear it will experience over time. Our tools need to withstand more than just the anticipated load.

So how should the ZZ be tested? To destruction, in as many ways as necessary to insure it has an appropriate margin of safety to keep climbers safe over its usable life span.
 
I would like to see that test designed. For some reason, the folks at petzl or rock exotica haven't figured it out either! There are also no MBS written on ascenders, the ascenders sever the rope before the tool breaks. The only things I can think of are rigging tools such as carabiners, rings, rigging plates, pulleys and ropes. These are tested to the configuration that they are used and it is quite straightforward to test to destruction. What a zig zag breaks at being pulled end to end would be useless info.
 
If you have testing configurations that would be applicable for the zig zag offer them up? Should one end be clipped into that little hole at the top link? Pulled end to end? What would that info mean? That it can be used as a connecting link? Should a knot be tied under the zig zag so it jams up? My post is not thoughtless as I have given a lot a lot of thought to this question, posting some random number on the side of the tool based off of some random configuration makes no sense to me and also would give liscense to use that tool to whatever contrived configuration it is tested to. I don't think that is wise. I do believe that the zig zag should provide info on slippage though, that would be usefull info and I am surprised it is not written anywhere.
 
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... What a zig zag breaks at being pulled end to end would be useless info.

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Not if that number is 250lbs or even a 1000? If it isn't important than whats the standard? How strong is it required to be?

Does anyone honestly believe that Petzl didnt pull test one end to end? Why not share the info...

If it was listed at 4800lbs would you be okay with using it? I mean really, 4800lbs MBS is pretty strong, I cant imagine breaking that in a climbing scenario. But then it wouldnt meet the 5000lb/23kn standards, so I dont list it and say it doesnt matter?

http://www.petzl.com/files/all/technical-notice/Sport/B17S-ASCENSION.pdf

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Hmmm...

I mean a grigri could easily be tested but a quick search shows that you are right, no markings..

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How would you test to destruction?
I looked at a couple of my eights and one did have markings one did not. Eights can double as rigging points or connecting devices quite easily. It makes sense to have this dual purpose. My atc has no markings
 
If the zig zag broke at 250 lbs end to end but began to slide down the rope at 1000 in proper configuration, I would be fine with it. I would know not to use it as a connecting device in my climbing system.
 
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... My post is not thoughtless as I have given a lot a lot of thought to this question...

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You have not been giving thought to the question but instead focusing on ways to support your biased point of view using half truths and altered logic. The very same techniques that other factions within our industry are using to slow down the acceptance and use of SRWP. Two wrongs don't make it right.

If you had actually been thinking you would have already answered your own questions as to the hows and whys for testing this and other tools that, in the tree industry, are used for primary life support.
 
If you can demonstrate breaking a zig zag I would love to see it. Would putting in my vise and measuring the pressure needed to smash it be helpful? I just cant imagine what you are suggesting would look like. I
 
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...I do believe that the zig zag should provide info on slippage though, that would be usefull info and I am surprised it is not written anywhere.

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That is useful info and it is posted somewhere, I know I have read it, just can't find it. Someone will.
I remember wondering if it locks up or slips and it was pointed out that it slips when overloaded.
With all the certifications, stamps, rating, rules, product and event liability folks etc. remember you are putting it in a tree and I can't find it stamped anywhere.v

Edit:
PS...I am sure that politics play a huge roll in the rules for competitions as much as in the certification of products for sale.
My comment....you look into a tree and see branches and such for placing your line, they mean something to you from all of your past experience, such that you will hang your life on it. I look at the 40Kn stamp on the side of my HH.......can anybody tell me what that means? (Besides almost 9000 pounds of force.)
 
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The gri gri won't break it will slide in the configuration you outline. It would be good to know that number though I agree

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How do you know that? I dont... I have however loaded a grigri with a 5:1 and 4-5 men pulling on it, I imagine I was way over 1000lbs of force and there was zero slippage.

I would wager that if I tie a 10mm line to the back of my chipper truck and then put it in the grigri and attach a steel OXAN to the grigri and tie that to the bucket truck with a bull rope and drive away that the cam on the grigri comes flying out at a million mph...

Anyone want to send me one? I will film its destruction from multiple angles! I would destroy mine but I loaned it to someone and never saw it again.
 
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If you can demonstrate breaking a zig zag I would love to see it. Would putting in my vise and measuring the pressure needed to smash it be helpful? I just cant imagine what you are suggesting would look like. I

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Thats simple, break it end to end on the biner connections. Then break another with a biner through the saddle side connection and it set up on a rope, or show the slippage. Break a third set up in DRT mode, or show the slippage.

Again though, if anyone thinks Petzl didnt do this they are deluded.
 
Showing the slippage would be a lot of writing since slippage will be different for all the different types and diam of ropes. Pulling against the biner connections, okay you could do that and your right they probably did do that, but then you would have to draw that picture on the side of the tool, ( like the pictures on carabiners explains the MBS) I think that picture could be very confusing for a climber picking up the tool as it could imply that that is the intended usage of that tool.. I am sure petzl did all kinds of testing on the ZZ. They very well may have smashed it in a vise. All I am saying is that I believe they are completely justified in not writing random, confusing, or contrived numbers on the tool itself. Petzl is the standard bearer for safety instructions in our industry, I think they know what they are doing. if we can't trust them, then who? I personally do not want to know how a tool will perform in a contrived configuration. This whole argument is funny. do any of us taking part in this discussion own or even want to own a zigzag? I really would like to see slippage data. I would find that very useful. That is if I was thinking about climbing on a zig zag.
 
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The gri gri won't break it will slide in the configuration you outline. It would be good to know that number though I agree

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How do you know that? I dont... I have however loaded a grigri with a 5:1 and 4-5 men pulling on it, I imagine I was way over 1000lbs of force and there was zero slippage.

I would wager that if I tie a 10mm line to the back of my chipper truck and then put it in the grigri and attach a steel OXAN to the grigri and tie that to the bucket truck with a bull rope and drive away that the cam on the grigri comes flying out at a million mph...

Anyone want to send me one? I will film its destruction from multiple angles! I would destroy mine but I loaned it to someone and never saw it again.



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I don't have a gri gri but I would love to see this! Ill pay for it if you can break it like that.
 
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