basal anchor safety

You need to re-read that thread. She was temporarily stuck about 20' off the ground, her coworker did tell her what he was going to do - although it sounds like it was poorly communicated and coordinated, and it wasn't necessarily cutting her line that made her fall. The speculation was that her TIP was shock loaded causing it to fail.
 
The TIP hadn't broken out. Once she got down to about 20' her hand was burning so while stopped and trying to reorient herself the groundsman continued in "rescue" mode. She's still not completely clear on exactly what happened except to say she saw her line go tailing through the tree. End of the day, never a good idea to cut the climbers line.
 
treehumper said:
....Once she got down to about 20' her hand was burning so while stopped and trying to reorient herself....
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I am sorry for what happened to her on that day and I understand people's reluctance to press home factors that no doubt would cause her further anguish. But statements like this will not help others to understand what failed that day. When in an emergency of the type she was in, one does not stop to reorient unless they can't go on. If you read her earlier description of how her climbing system was set up it is clear that it was not climb worthy, imho.

In order for people to learn from a mistake, they need to clearly understand the mistake that happened.
 
I've got to disagree. While not ideal and not following the maxim of low and slow for a new setup, it was definitely climb worthy. Should she have taken the time, close to the ground to fine tune a new hitch/cord? Most definitely. But her rescuer ignored the #1 most important rule of aerial rescue, which is to carefully assess the scene. Had he taken a moment to do that, it is highly unlikely that he would have cut her rope as he would have realized that she was in the process, though temporarily aborted, of self rescue. Had he assessed the situation better, I have no doubt that the injuries sustained would have been limited to stings and burned hands. When practicing fast descents, I wear gloves because my climbing system, while definitely climb worthy, will create a fair amount of heat on longer descents.
What this accident does for me is underscore the need for regular (monthly) aerial rescue training for everyone one the crew, climbers and grounds people, on a multitude of different systems. Only through practice will everyone be able to calmly and efficiently carry out the various steps of an aerial rescue.
 
DSMc said:
In order for people to learn from a mistake, they need to clearly understand the mistake that happened.
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It's just as important to remember that accidents are almost never a single mistake, but a culmination of a day's (or even longer) mistakes.
 
I mentioned the possibility shock loading the TIP based on this:

"There have been some conversations now that when they transferred my weight to the second line they shock loaded my tie-in point, which caused the failure? I have been told there is a large rip high in the canopy where they think I was tied in. This still would explain why I fell as the rip, would have had to tear in order to drop me entirely from the tree?"
 
apologies for my ignorance, whats PSP as apposed to TIP? i do like the idea of raising the base anchor above head level. i've just been taking two turns around the trunk and tying a running bowline. is this unacceptable? i'm still not that comfortable on rope so almost anytime im not actively ascending i lanyard in, sometimes double lanyard. it makes me slow but i feel safer especially as i often am working with the property owner rather than a knowledgeable groundman.
 
Flex Abednego said:
i've just been taking two turns around the trunk and tying a running bowline. is this unacceptable?
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Doesn't sound unacceptable ,but it doesn't sound lower able either. If lower able base anchor is a feature your after there should be a thread for that or Mac did a piece on that type of base anchor systems, lower able that is.. Glad to hear someone else thinks its a good idea just raising the base anchor up to height for keeping it safer from ground saw operations.
 
DSMc said:
I am sorry for what happened to her on that day and I understand people's reluctance to press home factors that no doubt would cause her further anguish. But statements like this will not help others to understand what failed that day. When in an emergency of the type she was in, one does not stop to reorient unless they can't go on. If you read her earlier description of how her climbing system was set up it is clear that it was not climb worthy, imho.

In order for people to learn from a mistake, they need to clearly understand the mistake that happened.
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I met Rach4l at the NYTCC at the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens, she with her back, I with my ankle. Had a good conversation about all the possibilities. We went through the incident and assessed it and the various points where things could've been done differently. From her initial set up, the response to the hornets, initiating a rescue scenario, too rapid a descent, cutting of her line, etc... It wasn't that she stopped to reorient herself but after a rapid decent and unable to bear the pain of the burn she came to an abrupt halt. At that point she was attempting to get herself in a better position to continue the descent in a controlled fashion. As Wyoclimber points out the groundsperson didn't monitor the situation as it unfolded to evaluate the need to perform a rescue and, it's always more than one thing that leads to an incident. She is a very knowledgeable climber who understands the dynamics of the climbing system. She could clearly see any number of teachable moments.

As for the groundsman's responsibility, they did regular aerial rescue training but, as we all know that is still no substitute for the real thing unless you make your training session much more intense.

This discussion is really a derail from the intent of the OP though related insomuch the anchor point and its lowerability. I think we can all agree that in any scenario cutting a rope is not the best way to achieve a lowerable system.
 
And they are. Look at the Davey Tree incident recently, they are doing all the right stuff but actually applying it in the field. Despite the employees literally being the owners and thus have the responsibility to ensure safe work practices they stood by and said nothing to this guy as he climbed aboard his bucket without clipping in. If you see something, say something.
 
I hear ya Levi about your setup which I think is a cool idea and definitely understand what you mean about prepping for things that shouldn't happen . Just one thing ..isn't that what this threads about. :p
 
I would definitely agree paying attention to details is the best culture of safety. I learned from my pop an arborist for sixty years plus and if I asked him about ppe he wouldnt know what the hell i was talking about He's 85 and still climbs and works ,but he has learned to pick out hazards over his years of experience that allow him to stay safe regardless of wearing a helmet or not for example..I'm blessed I was taught to focus on safety in that manner not making sure I don't forget my ppe .. Which I will say is important to wear no doubt;)
 
I feel that it all comes down to a state of mind. A helmet won't do much for a reckless mindset.

As for base anchor safety, and ease of lowering, I like the trunk wrap technique with a Running Bowline, or a seperate anchor system.

Ian and I tried out my ATC system today. It was super easy to initiate lowering, easy to stop and lock off, and excellent feel of control for him. I never felt a shock load or anything sudden. This will be my setup for every base anchored job. I can't wait to try it DSRT.
 
theXman said:
I don't follow many SRT threads and I skimmed over this one.

As far as basal anchors on SRT, they never made me feel comfortable; if I was dropping stuff or tree removal.

Now, I only use it for ascent because I felt I was likely going to die if I continued SRT basal anchors while working.

Not for the thought that someone might cut my line. (although, giving the ground crew crap, maybe I should worry about that ;)) But because I'm sure that if I dropped a huge limb and the butt of that limb struck the trunk of the tree; it could easily cut that line.

Also, too many years of DRT. I kept forgetting that the other end of my rope was on the backside of the trunk when I was cutting off water sprouts or ivy and such.

SO, I quit. I only use SRT for my wraptor ascent.

The retrievable crown systems my friend Lawrence has shown me look good though.

I might just have too many years in DRT to change though.:aburrido:

Good article Mac Swan! Thanks for your work.
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Thanks for sharing these thoughts. Though I'm a relative newbe, and haven't developed the mental habits with regard to DdRT that you mention, all of the things that you mention are important for me to take note of.

P.S. I got a good laugh out of the little guy kicking the can down the road. Just hilarious. I don't know how I managed to miss this post earlier.

Tim
 
Flex Abednego said:
apologies for my ignorance, whats PSP as apposed to TIP?
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Hey, Flex!

I'm not certain that the answer I'm about to give is correct or not. It is my best guess based on vague recollection and extracting meaning from context. I started to look for a thread earlier that might give a definitive answer, earlier today, and got sidetracked along the way. My hope is that by answering this question for you that appears to have been missed by others in this thread, it will generate a response from someone who really knows what he's talking about.

Here is my rough guess: I think (PSP) means Primary Suspension Point. What I think is meant by this in the context of Stationary Rope Technique (SRT), which used to be called Single Rope Technique, is the single highest point over which your climbing rope passes.

I'm not exactly sure how this differs from TIP (Tie-In Point). My guess is that it is an attempt to distinguish a difference between what happens in DdRT and SRT. In DdRT, most often people attempt to have their rope pass over a single branch as one's only life support structure, and that that one branch is referred to as the Tie-In Point.

With SRT, there can be and often is a multitude of branches that support the weight of the climber. I think the phrase Primary Suspension Point (PSP), is an attempt to acknowledge this circumstance, and to give special importance or significance to the single highest branch that the rope is supported by.

For all I know, however, it could also mean the very last branch that provides any support in the series, just before the rope falls to the climber with no more branches adding support, regardless of whether or not this last branch is the highest branch. This would be the case if the rope went over the top of the canopy, then down, catching a lower limb, with the climber pulling back towards the other side of the canopy.

I'm going to need to learn how the other guys on this forum make their quick, handmade drawings. I suspect they're using Microsoft Paint. I think David Driver made one earlier in this thread; maybe he can enlighten me. Maybe in the future I'll be able to illustrate my point better using that capability. Thanks in advance to anyone on this forum who chooses to chime in with a better answer for Flex.

Tim
 
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TimBr said:
Hey, Flex!

I'm not certain that the answer I'm about to give is correct or not. It is my best guess based on vague recollection and extracting meaning from context. I started to look for a thread earlier that might give a definitive answer, earlier today, and got sidetracked along the way. My hope is that by answering this question for you that appears to have been missed by others in this thread, it will generate a response from someone who really knows what he's talking about.

Here is my rough guess: I think (PSP) means Primary Suspension Point. What I think is meant by this in the context of Stationary Rope Technique (SRT), which used to be called Single Rope Technique, is the single highest point over which your climbing rope passes.

I'm not exactly sure how this differs from TIP (Tie-In Point). My guess is that it is an attempt to distinguish a difference between what happens in DdRT and SRT. In DdRT, most often people attempt to have their rope pass over a single branch as one's only life support structure, and that that one branch is referred to as the Tie-In Point.

With SRT, there can be and often is a multitude of branches that support the weight of the climber. I think the phrase Primary Suspension Point (PSP), is an attempt to acknowledge this circumstance, and to give special importance or significance to the single highest branch that the rope is supported by.

For all I know, however, it could also mean the very last branch that provides any support in the series, just before the rope falls to the climber with no more branches adding support, regardless of whether or not this last branch is the highest branch or not. This would be the case if the rope went over the top of the canopy, then down, catching a lower limb, with the climber pulling back towards the other side of the canopy.

I'm going to need to learn how the other guys on this forum make their quick, handmade drawings. I suspect they're using Microsoft Paint. I think David Driver made one earlier in this thread; maybe he can enlighten me. Maybe in the future I'll be able to illustrate my point better using that capability. Thanks in advance to anyone on this forum who chooses to chime in with a better answer for Flex.

Tim
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Tim,
I love the way you write. No joke. very entertaining,
X
 
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