basal anchor safety

[TreeLogic]

Think it could interfere with lowerability?

 

[JTree]

Sadly, I doubt anything less than steel would slow a saw enough.

 

[treehumper]

Sadly, I doubt anything less than steel would slow a saw enough.

Yeah, look at the videos of comp toe boots and chainsaws. Plastic is no different than wood to chainsaw. Training and zero tolerance for lax work practices with the saws and your ropes.

 

[TreeLogic]

My thought was that if you nicked the plastic it'd give you time to say, "Oh Sh!t!" and not hit the rope, but if you were to nick the tensioned rope, the climber is probably screwed. Similar to the wire core lanyard. It's not saw proof but gives an extra measure of safety.

 

[Treetopflyer]

I like the ideas of protecting your rope from things that may occur on the ground although my initial concern which caused me to come up with this idea was ME! Or possibly another climber in the tree with me. I have never worried much about folks on the ground cutting my rope being that I let them know that if they cut my rope they will be my slave for their following eternity of incarnations. Seems to work well

Well shit Levi you should a just said that and canopy anchor

 

[macswan]

My main worry is pole saws from groundies, the chainsaw is not generally near my anchor line. The pipe would help that

I'm not sure how much it would interfere with the base ties I favor. Just make sure the edges are clean and smooth

 

[JeffGu]

It is a fairly common practice for utility companies to use PVC pipe on utility pole guy wires... makes it much more visible so people/dogs don't clothesline themselves walking into it. In this regard, it's a very good idea. You're much less likely to hit something with a chainsaw if you're aware of its presence. Things in our peripheral vision tend to become part of the background and we're less likely to notice them.. the larger they are, the more likely it is that this effect is minimalized. Makes sense, of course. Our ancestors had to be able to focus on tasks at hand without being distracted by every little, non-dangerous thing around them, while not missing the bear sneaking up behind them.

Having had a similar notion, that PVC pipe or even garden hose might protect the rope to some extent, I'll try an experiment this spring with a line under tension and a 1" PVC pipe over it. I suspect that the chainsaw will tend to spin the PVC and slip off, saving the rope. Not sure to what extent, but it might be interesting to see. Like TreeLogic said, a wirecore flipline isn't saw proof, it's just saw resistant. Sometimes, a split second is all you need to grab onto something and save yourself. I've tried to cut a section of cable with a chainsaw remotely, we had to clamp the saw in place and move the cable into the running blade, because we couldn't think of any easy way to move the saw remotely. With rope tied to each end of the spliced cable section, we could tension it and move it into the saw, but we could not tension it enough to actually cut through it. The saw violently throws it away, but it did do serious damage to the cable. Not, however, enough that we felt it wouldn't hold you in place. A lanyard is normally only holding a portion of your weight.

For informational purposes, we used an old $99 Poulan with a 16" bar. Not exactly a powerhouse saw, so probably not very useful data collected, since that cheapass saw was more suitable as a kitchen utensil than for making firewood. A friend donated it to the cause, bar was worn out and chain was dull, but we really just wanted to see what would happen without hurting ourselves or damaging any equipment that was actually useful. I'd love to see a more carefully thought out version of the experiment, though. Maybe I should send off a letter to MythBusters, eh?

 

[oceans]

Don't get me wrong I am comfortable working off base anchors good enough....actually before I found the pinto canopy anchor and was using a mallion, I truly preferred the base as I always could retrieve the rope easier after many redirects...now, Eric is so right with the rope in system and shared load makes for better absorption...now what I don't like is the pulling motion it creates when run through springy branches high up in the canopy, it does happen with canopy ( but lesser if a nice canopy TIP is chosen ) but I find to a lesser extent..I know a static redirect can solve this most times...anyways guess different styles cause different likes and dislikes...bot are good to go and I will use each according to tree...

Paul, you're right about movement of tree structure with redirects, and I know that a good number of your trees on the island have been topped, leaving you with thin, upright reiterations. I would surely choose a canopy anchor and static redirects if I was working with that. I hope you find a much more base-tie friendly environment in the UK!

 

[JTree]

I get the pvc idea, I really do, but I keep thinking that ya can't get more hi viz than most climbing lines.....maybe a day glow colored piece of pvc.

Re: the cable lanyard, yeah, it's for sure not saw proof. I wasn't there, a long time ago, I was told you could cut through a tensioned lanyard in about 2 seconds if you really got down on it. That sounded believable, so I never tested it. Seems to me that the chain would be damaged enough to pose no threat to the cable right about the same time the cable snapped.

I like the ring and ring safety device. Really I do. I've been working off a basal system more and more, as I learn more and more. It would be even nicer to make it midline attachable so that you could set it easier.

 

[JTree]

Oh you could do it with a standard ring and ring, it just wouldn't be practical.

 

[TreeLogic]

I get the pvc idea, I really do, but I keep thinking that ya can't get more hi viz than most climbing lines.....maybe a day glow colored piece of pvc.

Agreed the ropes are visible these days but there's also the concept of being clutterblind where you see so much of that rope that it really doesn't get your attention anymore. That's where the different color (yes even plain ol' white) PVC might catch your eye, because it's out of the ordinary. Anyway, just thinking out loud. Good point JeffGu about the pipe or hose spinning around if hit by the saw. Makes total sense.

 

[evo]

Why not just use a x ring sling with prussik and a steel carabiner? Thread the climbing line into the small ring, yard it up just past the PSP then tie a butterfly to haul the x ring. Once you climb up to what ever level the sling is at throw it around the stem and snap the biner.

 

[LandonPainter]

I am interested in how many climbers have been injured due to a ground person and or another climber accidentally cutting a basal anchor/srt climbing line. As opposed to a climber being injured while being rescued by a ground person and a lowerable basal anchor. Being a contract climber I am often in a situation where the person on the ground is not familiar with srt let alone lowering an injured climber, no matter how simple the system may seem to an experienced climber. I think the answer may be 2 base anchors or canopy anchors, 2 climb lines, 2 separate systems and 2 bridges per climber and try to self rescue if possible. Now I know this is not always ideal but it would reduce injuries.

 

[treehumper]

Being a contract climber I am often in a situation where the person on the ground is not familiar with srt let alone lowering an injured climber, no matter how simple the system may seem to an experienced climber.

Thus my earlier comment.
Do we demand a training session with grounds people for the express purpose of preparing them for an emergency?

 

[Tom Dunlap]

When a 'rescue' situation incorporates cutting ropes I shudder in terror! There are many safer ways to do a rescue lower

 

[evo]

I have put much thought into this for myself. I feel that a rescue base anchor would not work for me in about 95% of the scenarios I've thought about, even with competent people who would know how to lower me. If I'm using a saw I am tied in twice by using my lanyard, even with a handsaw most of the time. So the only situation it would work is if I have the capacity to disconnect the lanyard myself. If I can do that I can most likely descend on my own. If I had a anything swing to hit me, it would be while I'm using a saw therefore tied in twice.

The only cases that I can think of is if I got nailed by a hanger, attacked by bees to the point of passing out, or some non accident injury such as a heart attack.. Then I could be lowered, but not likely if I were in a conifer. If I were in the crown of a conifer you'd have to let me run pretty good to bounce me through the limbs...

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Here's a part of a base anchor rescue scenario that has hardly ever been discussed.

As most of us know, the climber is very likely to be tied in with a lanyard. Or, there might be so much friction from redirects or the PSP that a rescue climber is going to have to ascend.

Now, the rescue climber is at the victim. With a base anchor on one or both there is a real possibility that one or the other can be belayed down from the tree using the base anchor. This will allow the rescuer to only have to belay themselves or the victim. If there were the luxury of having more belayers on the ground the rescue climber could potentially only have to attend to the victim.

All of these potential scenarios would need to be diagrammed and setup first. Low and slow...moving a victim can make things worse.

 

[Treetopflyer]

If I were in the crown of a conifer you'd have to let me run pretty good to bounce me through the limbs...

The groundies all giggling" he's out cold this time ..let him ruunnn!"

All of these potential scenarios would need to be diagrammed and setup first. Low and slow...moving a victim can make things worse.

Sort of like what Ive described above then right.

 

[DSMc]

...All of these potential scenarios would need to be diagrammed and setup first. Low and slow...

When dealing with trees and people, I spend a great deal of time explaining the importance of being proactive not reactive! I would like to see as much serious effort and thought put into making sure an aerial rescue or recovery is not needed. A rescue is a reactive response to something that could have and should have been avoided.

 

[macswan]

Here's a part of a base anchor rescue scenario that has hardly ever been discussed.

As most of us know, the climber is very likely to be tied in with a lanyard. Or, there might be so much friction from redirects or the PSP that a rescue climber is going to have to ascend.

Now, the rescue climber is at the victim. With a base anchor on one or both there is a real possibility that one or the other can be belayed down from the tree using the base anchor. This will allow the rescuer to only have to belay themselves or the victim. If there were the luxury of having more belayers on the ground the rescue climber could potentially only have to attend to the victim.

All of these potential scenarios would need to be diagrammed and setup first. Low and slow...moving a victim can make things worse.

That is something I constantly say, even if a rescuer has to ascend, the lower able anchor can still possibly facilitate a smoother rescue