Anybody Want To Chime In on The Trango Cinch

TimBr said:
First, I'm not a pro arb, just a guy who has been climbing sporadically for the last couple of years when the weather suits me, to prune deadwood. My biggest project so far has been to drastically cut back two huge leaders on a monster oak tree that were threatening a friend's house. I rigged all of the bigger pieces down, with pulley and Port-a-wrap, with help on ground from the owner.

Having said all that by way of background, I think I can answer both of your questions. I did use the Trango Cinch as way to make my system lowerable, in conjunction with the Art Snake Anchor. My friend/ground man/property owner was not a climber, so I needed something straightfoward and easy to explain and demonstrate, and the Trango Cinch filled the bill. If I had owned a Petzl Rig, that might have been an even better solution, but I don't own one yet. My groundman/friend is a sharp older guy. I habitually would tie an alpine butterfly as a stopper knot below the Cinch just a bit, just in case the rope were to try and slip through the Cinch on me. My friend commented once "That stopper knot of yours never moved an inch".



As far as trying to use it for SRT, that is a fairly frustrating experience. I tried using it as such during a part of my earlier attempts at learning to climb. I trusted it to hold me with certainty as a backup to my climbing hitch. The problem for me was that it does not tend well for a long ascent, if I recall correctly. Way too much work. Now that I'm thinking about it, all of the "rope walker" systems have some kind of connection that causes the main ascender to self-tend, whether it be a Rope Wrench or a Hitch Hiker or a Bulldog Bone or whatever. I honestly cannot recall ever trying to find a way to make the Trango Cinch self-tend. Maybe if someone tried it and found a way to make it work, it would be suitable. At the time I was using it, that just never occurred to me, so I don't know if it's possible. Nowadays I always use my cinch at the base for lowering.


I use a "rope-walker" setup with a Rope Wrench on one rope and a Hitch Hiker on the second rope. I always load up my hitches while I'm still on the ground to verify that they'll hold me, before I ascend. With a "rope-walker" setup, and an over the shoulder webbing strap for self-tending, the climbing is as easy as anything I've managed to find yet. I do also use a cammed ascender above with a four foot
dyneema sling going to my side "D" biners, just for a backup. This ascender resembles what I think is called a "Gibbs" ascender, and it pushes up the rope really easily. Once I get into the crown, this, ascender gets used in combination with a small pulley and a biner to create a 3 to 1 mechanical advantage for limbwalking.

That's all for now, sorry to be so long-winded.


Tim
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Thanks Tim. For an occasional climber you sound like you have a very good grasp of tree work. Lots of modern equipment and techniques.
 
The cinch and the grigri are not a work positioning devices. These are both assisted braking belay devices. The way you guys are describing using these devices as a ground anchor or work positioning lanyard is not keeping with the manufacturer's recommendations. There are much better devices that can be used.
 
Waldo said:
..not a work positioning devices.
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True enough.

Waldo said:
There are much better devices that can be used.
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Like a rope grab? I have a LOT of those. I also have a telephone pole set up as a drop test fixture. What do you suppose happens when I dump 75 lbs. onto a rope grab, 6' drop, and the Trango Cinch? I'll give you a hint... one of them doesn't slide down the rope several feet before grabbing.

I think you'd have to define "better" in this application. For the lanyard use, that might be tougher than you think, even if we don't bother to consider such things as ease of use and smoothness of operation. Those things can affect overall safety of a device, but we can just look at both static and shock loading in a basket configuration lanyard application. In such an application, we can't can't claim that the failure to grab is a "shockloading mitigation feature" because it doesn't happen soon enough on a typical lanyard to prevent it from either going right off the end of the rope or slamming to a nasty halt at the rope termination end. The Cinch is offered in a lanyard system, and so is ESA's very similar product, and I can only assume that they consulted with the manufacturers on this. Perhaps not.

I'm not going to argue your point about whether the devices are in keeping with the OEM's intent, I'm merely pointing out that "better options", by which I assume you mean devices for which the OEM does recommend their use in the examples in this thread, are not always better in any sense of the word.
 
I totally get it, Steve. When I first moved here I got heat from some of my bosses over the use of PPE and all the rest of the safe work practices. As they saw the production they were getting and the fact that they were freed up from having to be on the jobsites there was less friction. If you can discuss it with him outside of the immediate work time then you might be able to show him what the value is. Stand your ground professionally without the anger and you'll feel better about it. End of the day though, if he can't see it you'll be having to evaluate whether it's worth staying there or moving on. Tough bloody situation.
 
Used the cinch for a little while yesterday. Seems pretty idiot proof and fail safe. It appears pretty difficult to use wrong. I'm not super happy how it sits on my left side d but it's ok. I'll just get used to it. More reviews to come. It really likes the tritech 10mm. No free running lanyard when not in use like guys have mentioned with smaller lanyards.
 
Steve Connally said:
It appears pretty difficult to use wrong.
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There was at least one incident where somebody managed to do it. I didn't think it was confusing, in fact, I thought you'd almost have to be trying to put it on backwards. I saw a guy in Walmart once, with his pants on backwards. Maybe some people just need a babysitter.

I think you'll get used to the left side adjuster quickly. You might even come to prefer it!
 
Better devices as in the grillion or the zillion lanyards from Petzl, or the postioner from ART. These devices are designed and marketed as industrial work positioning devices.

The cinch does not have a 'shock load mitigation' feature. It is designed and marked at an assisted belay device, not a locking belay device. It says quite clearly in the instructions never to remove your belay hand from the rope. Arborists are never belayed. We use our ropes for work positioning.

This is the same as using your carabiner to cinch against a branch. Sure it works, but it is a misconfiguration of your carabiner. The same is true for using an assisted braking device as a work positioning device. It is not how the device is intended to be used and not designed for it.
 
A.R.T Positioner all the way! I now have two of them suckers. Small, compact and swivels so my lanyard is ALWAYS in line.
 
Waldo said:
It is not how the device is intended to be used and not designed for it.
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Again, won't argue that point.

Waldo said:
This is the same as using your carabiner to cinch against a branch.
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This one's a bit of a reach. You're talking about putting full load on a single leg, choked configuration in a manner that stresses a device in its weakest direction.
We have been, at least in the lanyard discussion (the only part I've talked about) discussing a basket configuration in which the device is kept from exiting the rope by the end termination and for which only half the normal load can be applied to the device, in it's intended functional direction/configuration. If we were using the lanyard in any single leg configuration, the full load could be applied to the device, but only a heavy shock load could destroy the end termination and allow the device to slip off the end of the rope. Since we're discussing a fall arrest situation, in this case, we've already moved outside the intended purpose of any work positioning lanyard or device and any argument against the use of the Trango could be applied to any other device on the market.

As for using it in a lowerable basal anchor system, my assumption would be that it would be backed up with a knot or other normal method until deployed as a lowering device. In any scenario that I can imagine, this is very close, indeed, to the device's intended purpose since nobody has proposed using the device without someone on the ground controlling it.

I believe some insight might be gained by contacting the manufacturer about both of the thread's configurations/uses and hearing what they have to say. I'll try to remember to do this, sometime today, as I'm very curious about their input.
 
Waldo said:
....The cinch does not have a 'shock load mitigation' feature....
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I use the Trango Cinch and find it to be a good work positioning lanyard adjuster. It should be remembered that none of our tree climbing systems are rated for fall arrest and should be used accordingly. A cable core lanyard and rope grab certainly do not have any shock absorbing ability and have been industry standards for a long time now.
 
Jeff, I don't think anybody is arguing the point of these not being for fall arrest. I directly quoted your 'shock load mitigation' from an earlier post you made. I think some insight from the OEM would be great for this thread. As it stands right now, how we are using the cinch is not addressed in the instructions for the device. In fact, it lists explicitly that you are to never remove your brake hand from below the device. http://www.trango.com/Images/Tabs/User Guides/Cinch User Guide.pdf

Rocket, Yes. a lead fall is a shock load, but it is not the cinch or the grigri or the ATC that mitigates shock load, it is the dynamic rope and belay technique. I can give a really soft catch with any of these devices, equally I can stop the leader hard. Point being proper belaying mitigates shock load while rock climbing.
 
The grillion looks like nothing more than a grigri on a lanyard and the zillion is a zigzag. The zigzag has no schock loading capability nor does the gri gri. I'm a zigzag lover but many aren't. The other thing with the zigzag and the zillion is that any pressure in the chain will release the device. The trango is much better in that regard. I love my zigzag but surely wouldn't want one where I could bump it or for that matter cant see it during winter operations with a bulky jacket.
 
Steve, the reason I brought those up is because they are made to be work positioning lanyards. If you look in the instructions for use, they specifically say "work positioning lanyard" not "assisted belay device"
Please show me anywhere that the manufacturer recommends using it as a work positioning device.
 
I understand what you are saying. Believe me, I hear you. I choose to use it in a configuration different from manufacturer's recommendation. I also made that choice when I climbed SRT with the zigzag and the Rope Wrench. I also climb on the bull dog bone that doesn't have any specific certifications like the major manufacturers have. It's sort of ironic that I'd do that but would not likely to choose the zillion because of it's configuration. We've all got the things we feel strongly about. I understand where you're coming from and I appreciate the input. I'm not overly worried about it. I will continue to use it until I find a reason to tinker around with another toy. I love to buy new toys.
 
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