another backleaner

southsoundtree

Well-Known Member
Riggs,

You bring up an important moral and legal issue. What happens if that is an energized power line (I didn't try to figure it out some say power some say phone, whatever) and someone is using medical equipment, and a reckless move, clearly using the wrong equipment (shackles), puts someone's health or life at risk?
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
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ok I'll chime in here. "it was all part of the plan" why not make the face in the intended direction of the lay? once again it went sideways.

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Surprised this one went unchecked..
 

easyphloem

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok I'll chime in here. "it was all part of the plan" why not make the face in the intended direction of the lay? once again it went sideways.

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Surprised this one went unchecked..

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check it out then, Daniel. it's a free country.


SZ
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
ok I'll chime in here. "it was all part of the plan" why not make the face in the intended direction of the lay? once again it went sideways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me re-phrase that:

Can anyone answer the question?

Tom, Blinky, Easy, southsound, X, allmark?
 

evo

Well-Known Member
Is this a test to see if there is method to the madness? Was the thought about reliving pressure on the tension side of the tree? Well if it were soon as the pull started you changed the tension to compression so why not just make the face in line with the pull? Also another question for you is did you think that pounding those wedges helped?

Please educate me on why this is such a stupid question, as this is what I think you were trying to so gracefully articulate in the love letter you sent me as a pm. So teach me this way so I can store it into a garbage file of what could be done, but what not to do.
 

southsoundtree

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok I'll chime in here. "it was all part of the plan" why not make the face in the intended direction of the lay? once again it went sideways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me re-phrase that:

Can anyone answer the question?

Tom, Blinky, Easy, southsound, X, allmark?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you clarify what you are asking, please?
 

southsoundtree

Well-Known Member
Daniel-


From what I could tell from the perspective in the video:

It looked like you faced it toward the direction of pull. This would reduce the torque on the heart-rotted hinge (maybe there was a solid hinge all the way across, no video/ picture of the hinge up close)during the pull to upright. Once upright, it went from back/ side leaner to headleaner to the lay that it fell. You seemed to have cut it Coos Bay Style, from what I can suppose.

Is this it?
 

Blinky

New Member
I can't really explain it because I didn't watch close enough to see if the face was directionally biased like you would do with a side leaner. Is that what you mean? I'll go back and watch again later but I gotta go in a minute.

The tree seemed to go where you wanted it Daniel, if you have a tried and true method to do that, one that can be repeated reliably and taught, I'm interested.

I think most of us have done something similar to this where we landed a tree in an unlikely place by tapering and nipping hinges, cutting dutchmen, using side ropes, blablabla. It's not something I would rely on to protect a customer's landscape trees though because it's not reliable enough for my taste.

I don't have a lot of critique for this video, the loaded rope thing was addressed by others, same with the wedges, breaking vs chasing the hinge, etc. I would've done it very differently... but I love to climb and I'm not all that hot on heavy equipment.

Just consider that without being there, a neophyte cutter can mis-interpret what went on. You make it look like a routine, methodical job when in fact it was, like most interesting tree work, engineered on your feet. Some safety margins and generally accepted practices were discarded in favor of on the spot judgment and guesswork.
I do it too, but I don't often admit it in public and I don't exhibit it as a learning tool because it's not where I want arboriculture to go.

I want Arborists and tree crews to receive general professional recognition. To do that, we need to execute our work in consistently safe and professional style. I like the aviation concept of 'Generally Accepted Practices'. It's way for all aviators to be able to predict what others will do in the cockpit... it gets everybody on the same page.
 

UrbanTC

Well-Known Member
I just want to know one thing. If it didnt work out and the rope broke causing destruction and possible death. Would there still be a video about, what not to do?!?!?
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Daniel-

It looked like you faced it toward the direction of pull. This would reduce the torque on the heart-rotted hinge (maybe there was a solid hinge all the way across, no video/ picture of the hinge up close)during the pull to upright. Once upright, it went from back/ side leaner to headleaner to the lay that it fell. You seemed to have cut it Coos Bay Style, from what I can suppose.

Is this it?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is pretty mcuh what happened, but does not answer the question.. why not juts notch it towards the desired direction of fall?

There are plenty of opinions and stories here, but no one has answered the question.. Pretty simple question too..

Is there no one here that can and will answer it?
 

southsoundtree

Well-Known Member
Daniel, I think that it is maybe a simple question if more information is available. We only see a limited amount of information. I'm pretty sure that there is somebody here smart enough to answer your question given the additional information. Maybe not, though. We are collectively a pretty dull bunch. Sorry everybody to admit to it. Maybe you guys aren't answering because you forgot how to use a computer or a just busy playing with legos or something, maybe finger painting.

Is there anyone there can can answer why not to just use the bucket truck or climb to hang the rigging in a more industry acceptable way, and use the proper industry approved equipment instead of shackles, as well as why take the risks you did rather than piecing it out with the bucket quickly?

What was the risk/ reward balance by pulling it over in the way you did, versus these other approaches to pulling it over or otherwise removing the tree?
 

Blinky

New Member
Wait, if the question is why not just notch it right into the lay that's sorta obvious,
- it was leaning something like 90 degrees to the lay.
- it was severely leaning and unlikely to hinge well at any angle other than the direction of pull.

I'm pretty sure everybody here has a grasp of that. What's not obvious is how can you predict that it will fall into the lay on a torn hinge 90 degrees away. That's what we're calling luck since torn hinges are generally not reliable.

That you pulled it off doesn't make it a sound method. Reliability and repeatability do. Until I see it explained in physical principles that make sense, I think it was a lucky drop. I think you knew it was going somewhere over there if the hinge survived the back pull, but it was luck it dropped where it did.
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
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Daniel, I think that it is maybe a simple question if more information is available. We only see a limited amount of information.


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Ya, You have a limited amount of information, yet you make up stories about what happenned.. and what didn't happen.. that is my point.

I went to a yoga conference recently where a yogi was commenting on the prayer "lead us from unreality to reality".. that is the essence of yoga.. the human condition has been plagued by the stories we make up about who we are and what our relationship to the world is. These stories, which we tell ourselves and which many are so attached to, are completely false, as they result from the limitations of our perceptions (5 senses) and the minute level of our experiences. Our attachment to these faslehoods is the source of all suffering, as the truth of our being is so grand ..

This video has been greatly misunderstood, and often demonized..

In part due to the mistaken chronology in the editing, which shows the notch being cut after the line is pulled.. The notch is visible in both initial pulling sequences showing that it and the backcut were made before the tension was put on like that..

The other part of the misunderstanding is that people make up stories based on limited information.. they see some little part of a job in a video and don't think that there might have been a lot more going on than was shown.. and for some reason, many seem to think its the producers obligation to demonstrate the techniques and calculations used to ensure the safety of an operration..

If you look closely there were four line legs coming off the top of the tree.. , one retainer line and two pull lines... one pull line was doubled.. test pulls were made before cutting the notch, two lower limbs had been cut back to prevent limb lock, again they are visible as the tree stands up..

Load limits were kept to 50-60% tensile..

and much more..

you may think it looks like a "hope and a prayer cut", but it was 100% in my mind.. the only variable was the need to make the final cut. Once the piece stood up, I tried to break the hinge with the retainer (right angle) line. When that failed, I stepped in and cut the holding wood to trip the tree into the field, as I didn't want to lay it up into the trees that were being used as ground anchors.. By the time the tree started to stand up there was less force needed to do the pulling, thus ensuring the ropes would not fail, as they had held at much higher applied force.
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
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Wait, if the question is why not just notch it right into the lay that's sorta obvious,
I'm pretty sure everybody here has a grasp of that.

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Apparently not everyone.. and when one person asked the question, no one here stepped in and answered it.. So what is going on here on TB? That is what I have asked myself..

There are plenty of arborists on other sites, that think the job was pretty straight-forward, no big deal drop. I AM in their camp...

Just like the "pushing the limits" video thread where Holly and X-man were going off about how lucky I was (fat and lazy too), and Chip was the only one that was saying it was no big deal.. And it wasn't. It was just beyond the experience or perceptions of those that did not understand it..
 

Daniel

Well-Known Member
And YES..
the wedges moved the tree in conjunction with the existing pull of two pull lines that were pre-tensioned.
 
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